Civil War History - General DiscussionFor Discussions on Civil War Era Personalities, Politics, Issues, Campaigns, Battles, and more. Serious Civil War Discussions Only Please! All other posts will be deleted.
Originally Posted by cash
They were not in confederate service. In order to be in confederate service they had to be mustered into confederate service. Several militia units were mustered into confederate service. No blacks were, though.
See the example of the 1st Louisiana Native Guards. They were Louisiana Militia who also weren't mustered into confederate service with other militia units.
[Inconclusive.]
"The Confederate authorities never intended to use black troops for any mission with real importance. If the Native Guards were good for anything, it was for public display." [James G. Hollandsworth, Jr., _The Louisiana Native Guards: The Black Military Experience During the Civil War,_ pp. 10-11]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
They stayed in New Orleans and became Federal troops.
[Some 20% did.]
They all stayed in New Orleans. That a minority became Federal troops isn't surprising, since the Federals at that time were little better than the confederates when it came to allowing blacks to actually fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Blacks in state militia were used as laborers or as home guard types.
[Incorrect.]
No, correct.
In Tennessee, some of these men were marched through the streets of Memphis. "They marched under the command of Confederate officers and carried shovels, axes, and blankets." [Charles H. Wesley, "The Employment of Negroes as Soldiers in the Confederate Army," _The Journal of Negro History,_ Vol. IV, No. 3, July, 1919, pp. 244-245]
We played by your rules Cash. You required...soldiers.[/quote]
Confederate soldiers.
I asked for you to back up your numbers. You provided instances where Tennessee and Alabama provided for blacks/Creoles in their militia and did not show the source of the numbers themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Someone that fought in a half-dozen battles wasn't enough...they had to be technically...soldiers...
I don't recall a half-dozen battles shown. Someone picking up a rifle in one battle isn't a soldier. As I said, John Burns at Gettysburg wasn't a soldier either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
...and I supplied a number to the tune of about 5,000 that were...technically...soldiers.
You didn't back up the numbers. Where did the numbers come from?
See the example of the 1st Louisiana Native Guards. They were Louisiana Militia who also weren't mustered into confederate service with other militia units.
Inconclusive.
How did their muster rolls end up in the National Archives?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
"The Confederate authorities never intended to use black troops for any mission with real importance. If the Native Guards were good for anything, it was for public display [this could also be said about the white troops in NO]." [James G. Hollandsworth, Jr., _The Louisiana Native Guards: The Black Military Experience During the Civil War,_ pp. 10-11]
What "mission of importance" was there in New Orleans for any troops (black or white) prior to March-April 1862?-
A parade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
They all stayed in New Orleans. That a minority became Federal troops isn't surprising, since the Federals at that time were little better than the confederates when it came to allowing blacks to actually fight.
They were ordered to disband by their commanding officers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
No, correct.
In Tennessee, some of these men were marched through the streets of Memphis. "They marched under the command of Confederate officers and carried shovels, axes, and blankets." [Charles H. Wesley, "The Employment of Negroes as Soldiers in the Confederate Army," _The Journal of Negro History,_ Vol. IV, No. 3, July, 1919, pp. 244-245]
OK, I stand corrected..."some"...
...likewise some of the USCT were used only as laborers or for guarding prisoners but they're still called soldiers.
~
The Native Guards were armed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
"We played by your rules Cash. You required...soldiers."
Confederate soldiers.
100s?....1000s?...
Recruiting for Black Confederate Troops (Mar-Apr 1865) at-
Richmond, Va.
Lynchburg, Va.
Halifax County, Va.
Montgomery, Ala.
South Carolina
Macon, Ga.
Tallahassee, Fla.
O.R., Series 4, Volume 3, p.1193-94. The source for Macon is the local newspaper.
We know that a few/several companies were organized in Richmond.
Are we to assume the other places received no recruits?
I'd accept as a soldier any a black whose name appeared on an enlistment role, wore a government-issued uniform, bore a government-issued weapon,* and received compensation for his service or a pension from a member state of the Confederacy.
*This assumes that Union teamsters, wagoners, artificers, quartermasters, pioneers and other normally noncombatant personnel were issued a weapon.
Quote:
We know that a few/several companies were organized in Richmond.
Are we to assume the other places received no recruits?
It is my understanding that the companies seen in Richmond is the only evidence of the long-delayed employment of enlisted, black, confederate troops. It is conceivable that there were a few enlisted in the areas mentioned, but we might note that, outside of Richmond, the other areas cited were essentially out of the war.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
OK, I stand corrected..."some"...
...likewise some of the USCT were used only as laborers or for guarding prisoners but they're still called soldiers. Mustered in, paid, uniformed, armed and called soldiers by their brethern... I think that pretty much identifies them as soldiers. I have seen no evidence of Black CS soldiers being mustered,paid, armed, uniformed, equiped or called soldiers by their own CS brethern.
~
The Native Guards were armed. What arms were they carrying, who issued them from which armory? As a prewar militia unit they had some arms of their own prior to the war. they did not come from either the state of LA or the CS.
100s?....1000s?... dozens?...
Recruiting for Black Confederate Troops (Mar-Apr 1865) at-
Richmond, Va.
Lynchburg, Va.
Halifax County, Va.
Montgomery, Ala.
South Carolina
Macon, Ga.
Tallahassee, Fla.
O.R., Series 4, Volume 3, p.1193-94. The source for Macon is the local newspaper.
We know that a few/several companies were organized in Richmond.
Are we to assume the other places received no recruits? Judging from the numbers of whites recruited for CS service in the last mos of the war... how many Black Confederate Soldiers do you believe were mustered?
Please provide sources in context if you please.
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
How did their muster rolls end up in the National Archives?
Have you seen them there? They were Louisiana Militia only, not in confederate service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
What "mission of importance" was there in New Orleans for any troops (black or white) prior to March-April 1862?-
A parade.
"The first test of Confederate willingness to accept the Native Guards in the spirit of true fraternity had not gone well. On September 28, 1861, word had come that Union prisoners captured at Manassas would arrive in New Orleans within two days. Their arrival was an occasion for much excitement, and the troops selected to guard the prisoners as they marched from the train station to the city prison would be afforded a great honor. General John L. Lewis of the Louisiana militia suggested that the Native Guards be allowed to escort the prisoners of war. But the Confederate commander in New Orleans said no, and white miliitamen were picked instead." [James G. Hollandsworth, Jr., _The Louisiana Native Guards: The Black Military Experience During the Civil War,_ pp. 6-7]
"Enthusiasm among the Native Guards for the Confederate cause did not last long, however. Many of the men were still without uniforms or equipment, and one company had only ten muskets. Absenteeism increased when it became apparent that the Confederate authorities did not intend to provide the Native Guards with either the status or support they afforded white soldiers." [Ibid., p. 7]
"The legislature's reorganization of the militia also affected the Ntive Guards. Because the new statute specified white males and disbanded all existing militia units as of February 15, 1862, the Native Guards ceased to exist on that date. Their demise was temporary, however, for Governor Moore reinstated the Native Guards on March 24 after the Federal navy under Captain David G. Farragut entered the Mississippi River." [Ibid., p. 8]
More important missions were yet to come, but the confederates didn't want the Native Guards to be part of it. When the Federals came to New Orleans and the confederates evacuated, they left the Native Guards behind.
"Lowell abandoned what was left of his supplies and headed north. Lewis ordered the Native Guards to disband, cautioning them to hide their muskets and dispose of their uniforms before returning home. At least one Northern writer reported later that the Native Guards had been ordered to leave the city but refused. Another writer claimed that the Native Guards had been ordered to blow up the United States Mint building when the Union navy arrived. Neither assertion was true." [Iibd., p. 10]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
They were ordered to disband by their commanding officers.
By the white general John L. Lewis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
OK, I stand corrected..."some"...
...likewise some of the USCT were used only as laborers or for guarding prisoners but they're still called soldiers.
They had muskets and were also put into battle as soldiers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The Native Guards were armed.
They were Louisiana militia.
"Black soldiers in the state militia were not unusual in Louisiana, although they would have been everywhere else in the United States." [Ibid., p. 3]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
100s?....1000s?...
Recruiting for Black Confederate Troops (Mar-Apr 1865) at-
Richmond, Va.
Lynchburg, Va.
Halifax County, Va.
Montgomery, Ala.
South Carolina
Macon, Ga.
Tallahassee, Fla.
O.R., Series 4, Volume 3, p.1193-94. The source for Macon is the local newspaper.
We know that a few/several companies were organized in Richmond.
Are we to assume the other places received no recruits?
By that time there were very few "other places" left in the confederacy.
"Only in Richmond is there solid evidence of any units of black Confederate soldiers ever forming." [Bruce Levine, _Confederate Emancipation: Southern Plans to Free and Arm Slaves During the Civil War,_ p. 125]
On microfilm produced by the NA. The originals are in the NA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
They were Louisiana Militia only, not in confederate service.
Inconclusive.
How did their muster rolls end up in the NA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash/hollandsworth
"The first test of Confederate willingness to accept the Native Guards in the spirit of true fraternity had not gone well. On September 28, 1861, word had come that Union prisoners captured at Manassas would arrive in New Orleans within two days. Their arrival was an occasion for much excitement, and the troops selected to guard the prisoners as they marched from the train station to the city prison would be afforded a great honor. General John L. Lewis of the Louisiana militia suggested that the Native Guards be allowed to escort the prisoners of war. But the Confederate commander in New Orleans said no, and white miliitamen were picked instead." [James G. Hollandsworth, Jr., _The Louisiana Native Guards: The Black Military Experience During the Civil War,_ pp. 6-7]
Wow...what a terrible rejection...they didn't get to escort 250 Yankee prisoners.
According to a NO newspaper they showed up anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash/hollandsworth
"Enthusiasm among the Native Guards for the Confederate cause did not last long, however. Many of the men were still without uniforms or equipment, and one company had only ten muskets.
The Native Guard was part of the Volunteer Division of State Troops. Volunteers (whether white or black) had to supply their own arms and uniforms. The State eventually supplied the arms since very few (white or black) had them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash/hollandsworth
Absenteeism increased when it became apparent that the Confederate authorities did not intend to provide the Native Guards with either the status or support they afforded white soldiers." [Ibid., p. 7]
I know of only one attendance report...so I don't know where Hollandworth gets that "absenteeism increased."
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash/hollandsworth
"The legislature's reorganization of the militia also affected the Native Guards. Because the new statute specified white males [the old statute specified white males also] and disbanded all existing militia units as of February 15, 1862, the Native Guards ceased to exist on that date.Their demise was temporary, however, for Governor Moore reinstated the Native Guards on March 24 after the Federal navy under Captain David G. Farragut entered the Mississippi River." [Ibid., p. 8]
They were still active in February..
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
More important missions were yet to come, but the confederates didn't want the Native Guards to be part of it.
Nothing to support this.
Other than the escort letter "rejection" can you produce any document which quotes a Confederate officer as saying "we don't want the Native Guards to be part of it" (like your statement) or some other phrase to that effect.
How did their muster rolls end up in the NA? Are you kidding?
Wow...what a terrible rejection...they didn't get to escort 250 Yankee prisoners. It was an intentional slight as they were regarded by many as the best drilled Militia unit in LA.
The Native Guard was part of the Volunteer Division of State Troops. Volunteers (whether white or black) had to supply their own arms and uniforms. The State eventually supplied the arms since very few (white or black) had them. Obviously the state supplied them to units that were mustered in... hmmm odd that eh?
I know of only one attendance report...so I don't know where Hollandworth gets that "absenteeism increased." Hollandsworth put some real effort & research into the book (If I have the correct book in mind)... IIRC it was concise, accurate and quite brutal in it's honesty towards both the CS & US. I take it you've not read the book..
Other than the escort letter "rejection" can you produce any document which quotes a Confederate officer as saying "we don't want the Native Guards to be part of it" (like your statement) or some other phrase to that effect.
Actually doesn't it further your case to provide evidence that the State or CS saying they did want them? Perhaps a request to arm them or -gasp- muster them into service!
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
Battalion
"...likewise some of the USCT were used only as laborers or for guarding prisoners but they're still called soldiers."
Joha "Mustered in, paid, uniformed, armed and called soldiers by their brethern... I think that pretty much identifies them as soldiers."
Ullmann's Brigade (USCT), Siege of Port Hudson
Mostly unarmed and used as laborers:
Ullmann's report, 30 June 1863
"...I have the honor to report that all the forces under my command were ordered, as I have previously informed you, by Major-General Banks to Port Hudson. They have been employed there since the first days of June in digging. They have been of great service in this respect, the officers and men often passing twenty consecutive hours in the trenches..."
B-How did their muster rolls end up in the NA? J-Are you kidding?
What do you mean?
*
B-Wow...what a terrible rejection...they didn't get to escort 250 Yankee prisoners. J-It was an intentional slight as they were regarded by many as the best drilled Militia unit in LA.
"Intentional slight" ????
How on earth do you know this?
Are you clairvoyant and a time-traveler at the same time?
*
B-The Native Guard was part of the Volunteer Division of State Troops. Volunteers (whether white or black) had to supply their own arms and uniforms. The State eventually supplied the arms since very few (white or black) had them. J-Obviously the state supplied them to units that were mustered in... hmmm odd that eh?
Are you drunk? What on earth are you talking about?
*
B-I know of only one attendance report...so I don't know where Hollandworth gets that "absenteeism increased." J-Hollandsworth put some real effort & research into the book (If I have the correct book in mind)... IIRC it was concise, accurate and quite brutal in it's honesty towards both the CS & US. I take it you've not read the book.
128 total pages with 11 (E-LEV-EN) about the Confederate Native Guard.
On microfilm produced by the NA. The originals are in the NA.
Inconclusive.
How did their muster rolls end up in the NA?
You think the National Archives don't have any Louisiana Militia information?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Wow...what a terrible rejection...they didn't get to escort 250 Yankee prisoners.
According to a NO newspaper they showed up anyway.
So? They weren't given the honor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The Native Guard was part of the Volunteer Division of State Troops. Volunteers (whether white or black) had to supply their own arms and uniforms. The State eventually supplied the arms since very few (white or black) had them.
And according to Dr. Hollandsworth, the state supplied arms to the white units while leaving the black unit to fend for itself. "Many men [in the Native Guards] were still without uniforms or equipment as late as January 10, 1862." [Mary F. Berry, "Negro Troops in Blue and Gray: The Louisiana Native Guards, 1861-1863," _Louisiana History,_ Vol. VIII, No. 2, Spring, 1967, p. 169]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
I know of only one attendance report...so I don't know where Hollandworth gets that "absenteeism increased."
Charles P. Ripley, _Slaves and Freedmen in Civil War Louisiana,_ p. 103.
Also, Mary F. Berry, cited above. She cites the Morning Report of 10 Jan 1862 as showing "a high degree of absenteeism becuse of the lack of uniforms." [Ibid.]
You really think there was only one morning report of the unit for that entire time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
[the old statute specified white males also]
Nope. "After 1803 Louisiana was the only area where under the jurisdiction of the United States government where Negroes were included in the militia. Elsewhere they were excluded by federal and state law. ... After Louisiana was admitted to the Union in 1812 the first legislature authorized the continued existence of a free colored militia corps." [Ibid., p. 166]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
They were still active in February..
Not after 15 Feb.
AN ACT to reorganize the militia.
SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the State of Louisiana in General Assembly convened, That the militia of the State of Louisiana shall be composed of all the free white males capable of bearing arms residing in the State, and are eighteen years of age and not over forty-five, and who are not exempt under this law.
* * * * * * * * * *
SEC. 78. Be it further enacted, &c., That all laws conflicting with the provisions of this law be, and the same are hereby, repealed, and that this law shall not have force and effect until the fifteenth day of February next.
Approved January 23, 1862.
[OR Series IV, Vol 1, p. 869]
ORDERS NO. 426.
HDQRS. LOUISIANA MILITIA, ADJT. GEN.'S OFFICE,
New Orleans, March 24, 1862.
I. The Governor and commander-in-chief, relying implicitly upon the loyalty of the free native colored population of the city and State for the protection of their homes, their property, and for Southern rights from the pollution of a ruthless invader, and believing that the military organization which existed prior to the 15th of February, 1862, and elicited praise and respect from the patriotic motives which prompted it, should exist for and during the war, calls upon them to maintain their organization, and to hold themselves prepared for such orders as may be transmitted to them.
II. The colonel commanding will report the organization without delay to Maj. Gen. John L. Lewis, commanding State militia.
By order of Thomas O. Moore, Governor and commander-in-chief:
M. GRIVOT,
Adjutant and Inspector General.
[Ibid., p. 1020]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Nothing to support this.
Wrong again. Confederate policy at the time was "of excluding Negroes from the regular service." [Ibid., p. 169]
If such were not the policy, how do you explain the opposition to Cleburne's proposal, or the intense debate in 1865 about enlisting blacks into the confederate army?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Other than the escort letter "rejection" can you produce any document which quotes a Confederate officer as saying "we don't want the Native Guards to be part of it" (like your statement) or some other phrase to that effect.
We have the confederates leaving town and not taking the Native Guards with them.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Black Confederates 
Linear Mode
