PPT Charge compared to Franklin

[cof]

How did the attack by the Confederates at Franklin, Tenn. compare to PPT attack at Gettysburg on 7-3-1863 in number of men in each charge. The amount of ground covered, length of the attacking lines, the number of casulties.

[ole]

The union figured 6,252 casualties for the rebs which could be the equivalent of PPT. The rebs had as far to march, but they were mostly screened from artillery for most of the march, and there wasn't near as much Federal artillery at Franklin as a G'burg. Numbers actually doing the charging were about equivalent, although there weren't near as many Federals in the trenches at Franklin as there were at G'Burg.

By the way, did you ever check into "Researching Your Relatives"?
Ole

[amhistoryguy]

Most sources indicate that at PPT 10,500 Confederates were engaged. Some sources have a higher figure, up to 15,000, but the usually accepted figure is 10,500. Of those men, casualties are put at 5,675 of the men who made the advance. This is according to "Picket's Charge," by George Stewart.
By comparison, the number of men making the charge at Franklin has been put at between 20,000 to 27,000. Even accepting the low estimate, far greater than at Gettysburg. The number of Confederate casualties at Franklin has been estimated at 6,252, according to "Statistical Records," by Phisterer.
It would seem, by the numbers, that Franklin was a larger scale assault by the Confederacy than Gettysburg. There were many differences though, that should be kept in mind, such as lack of artillery involvement, planning, landscape, and other factors.

Regards, Dave Gorski

[samgrant]

This is an interesting topic. I have no more to add than a question about topography and defending forces..

From what numbers Amhist gives us, there were 2-2.5 times the number of assaulters at Franklin vs. Gburg.

What of the Union fortifications, any heigths to be scaled? And how does the ratio of attackers vs. defenders differ?

[ole]

The Federals were on a slight incline -- I believe even less tnan Cemetary Ridge -- and very well dug in. Schofield had six divisions of two corps on the lines -- I think less than or about the same number as the confederates' two corps in six divisions. (A third corps arrived to late to make any difference.)

The confederates got a break: Brigadier Wagner posted two brigades of his division on a small rise (Privet Knob) well in advance of the main line and kept them there too long. His retreat was in the line of fire fore a critical point in the line (the main road) and kept the fire suppressed until the confederates were literally on top of it.

A similarity to PPT: Col Opdyke, commanding one of Wagner's brigades, didn't like the posting and went on into town. (How's that for insubordination?) When the confederates broke through, they ran into this brigade while it was on break. That upset the four Illinois, one Ohio, and One Wisconsin regiments in Updyke's Brigade. They swept the now exhausted and shot-up break-through back across the line.

Schofield lost 2,326 of about 22,000 manning the works, (he had a total of about 28,500 in his force.) Hood had about 30,600 (minus the one division) and lost in excess of 7,000 if you count the walking wounded that marched or rode with him to Nashville. To add insult to that injury, Hood lost 12 generals (one, Cleburne, a division commander and the rest brigade commanders), and 54 regimental commanders. Six of the 12 generals died.

With approximately equal numbers engaged you can work out the percentages and appreciate the rule that an attacking force should have an overwhelming advantage of number.

Ole

[larry_cockerham]

Ole, I know you've been studying this battle recently as per your messages. Have you seen a map of Federal corps and regimental locations during the battle? Those are hard to find around here, since most of the local 'historians' to date have worried about the Confederates. The town is bulging with yankee settlers now days and the times are a-changing. Our SCV camp owns and maintains Winstead Hill which was the Confederate command post during the assault. We get a lot of random questions about Union regiments, but don't generally speak their language. The guys at the Carter House are reasonably well versed, however. My own study has not gone into that kind of detail, because my ancestors missed this particular battle. I recently discovered that Wilson and Hatch were on the north side of the Harpeth, out of harm's way, as the assault progressed. Forrest has been rumored to have watched part of the battle from the second story balcony of the Carnton mansion. Wilson was waiting to see if Forrest was going to attempt a flanking move to the northeast, which Forrest had actually proposed to Hood who just wasn't interested. I for one would like more detail on the actual position of Hatch's 2nd Brigade. Eric Jacobson's FOR CAUSE AND COUNTRY that several of you are studying has better and more documentation on federal units at Franklin than anything I've seen prior. The "feel" at Franklin versus Gettysburg are decidely different. Franklin is far smaller area with a force (Union) built into a creek bank with the town behind them. Gettysburg is far more open and much wider. The terrain over which the Confederates advance is far gentler at Franklin (except for the bullets flying forward from concentrated fire and the shelling, apparently not too great in scale from Ft. Grainger on the north bank of the Harpeth. Nothing at Franklin to compare with the Devil's Den or the Roundtops.

[ole]

Have you seen a map of Federal corps and regimental locations during the battle?

Scaife's Hood's Campaign for Tennessee has a good layout of brigade positions at Franklin, and the OOB to name regiments in each brigade.

I recently discovered that Wilson and Hatch were on the north side of the Harpeth, out of harm's way, as the assault progressed.

Don't know that I'd call that out of harm's way. They were cavalry, after all, and they were watching for Forrest to cross. Had he done so, there were five brigades of Wilson's Cavalry waiting for him. Hatch's two brigades (Stewart and Coon) had and would continue to prove themselves quite capable of not being overrun by Forrest's troopers, as were Croxton's, Hammond's, and Harrison's brigades. Forrest would have had his problems had Hood allowed him to attempt a flanking maneuver.

...and the shelling, apparently not too great in scale from Ft. Grainger on the north bank of the Harpeth.

The confederates did not get within cannister range of the batteries at Franklin which were posted well behind the entrenchments. At Gettysburg, hundreds of guns protested the confederate advance from a mile out. At Franklin there were scarecely more than a dozen -- if that. At Gettysburg, cannister and double-cannister were employed with extra-vicious effect. There was another battery east of town, well behind the Harpeth, waiting with the cavalry for a flanking movement.

I'll get Dear One to make a copy or scan it into her computer and get it off to you.
Ole

[Blockaderunner]

Wiley Swords, 'The Confederacys Last Hurrah' contains a series of maps of different phases of the battle of Franklin. These show the positions of individual regiments and gun batteries at given times.

[ole]

Yes, it does, Runner. They are highly detailed and, in that he sections the lines and attacks, they make a swell complement to Scaife's maps.
Ole

[EricJacobson]

Here are some numbers to digest:

The 4 p.m. attack at Franklin involves six Confederate infantry divisions totaling very roughly 18,000 - 19,000. Buford's Division of Forrest's cavalry also moves forward at 4 p.m., but does not engage the Federal infantry so you can choose to include it or not in a calculation.

There were four Federal divisions south of the Harpeth; Wagner, Cox, Ruger, and Kimball. Effectively, Kimball is only engaged on a limited scale and, of course, Wagner's is split - two brigades on the advanced line and Opdycke north of the Carter House. The brunt of the Confederate assault is absorbed by the Twenty-Third Corps divisions commanded by Cox and Ruger. The Twenty-Third Corps numbered just over 10,000 infantry. If you throw in Wagner, who commanded about 4,500, the main thrust was about 18,000 or 19,000 versus, let's say, 15,000. Throw in those from Kimball's Division, specifically Grose's Brigade, whose guns were actually fired more than once or twice, and the Federal total might be 16,000.

Keep in mind that Johnson's Division, maybe 2,500 more Confederates, are thrown in around 7 p.m. But they move in alone and Ruger's Division rips them apart.

All in all, the Confederate attack at Franklin towers over the July 3rd attack at Gettysburg referred to as Pickett's Charge. More men and more ground to cover, about 1 3/4 miles compared to 1 mile.

There is a reason men who fought at Franklin called Gettysburg the "Franklin of the East."