Lee the Enigma - Page 8

ole · #71 10-19-2007, 04:05 PM

Under the table, Larry. Under the table or desk.

It was a while back and maybe CW or Dred or Freddy, but as an officer schooled at the expense of the US of A, Lee pledged an oath to the Constitution and to the Government that he would serve. It has always bothered me that he and many of his compatriots reneged on that oath to remain loyal to their "states."

But, that is hardly important now. Scusi.

ole

27thConn · #72 10-19-2007, 04:19 PM

No need to duck from me Larry. We agree to disagree. You will always cling to your opinion as I will cling to mine and neither will change the others mind.

From Lee's first breath to his last Virginia was part of the United States. Her status may have been in doubt between 1861-1865 but when the smoke cleared she was still a part of the United States. Lee was not even a gleam in his father's eye when the Constitution was ratified by Virginia so he can have no claim to being a citizen of a totaly independent Virginia. All his life he new the United States Government as the ruling power. He pledged his support to that Government, benifited from its institution of learning, rose to moderate fame in its service and turned his back on that Government when it offered him the highest military office. What did the state of Virginia do for Lee up to that point?

Dred · #73 10-19-2007, 08:07 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but at West Point and afterwards he was part of the "United States" Army and not the "State I was Born in, in this case Virginia" Army? He betrayed that government. He deserted the US military in favor of another government, took possesion of said governments propery, and opened fire on its proponents. If this is not "traitor" then I don't know what is. Great general? yes. Great American? not so much. Great southerner? Well since so many soutehrners consider themselves southerners first and Americans only by happenstance, I guess so.

I took the oath for God and Country, not for God and Country until I don't feel like it anymore and then my State.

ole · #74 10-19-2007, 08:48 PM

Unaccustomed silence. Dangerous ground, fellas.

ole

larry_cockerham · #75 10-19-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5fish

The truth hurts at times!

WE MAY ALL THINK THE WORLD OF LEE, JACKSON, LONSTREET, FORREST, AND ALL THE OTHERS BUT THEY WERE TRAITORS BY ANY MEASURE.

WE MUST ALWAYS KEEP THAT IN THE BACK OF MIND.

I must submit that Forrest was no traitor, he was merely mad! He did not support secession since he was one of the wealthier men in the country in 1861. That fortune was about to be essentially lost as a result of the war. The others were either professional soldiers or far more closely tied to politics than Forrest. Bedford was a little different from the average man.

larry_cockerham · #76 10-19-2007, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ole

Under the table, Larry. Under the table or desk.

It was a while back and maybe CW or Dred or Freddy, but as an officer schooled at the expense of the US of A, Lee pledged an oath to the Constitution and to the Government that he would serve. It has always bothered me that he and many of his compatriots reneged on that oath to remain loyal to their "states."

But, that is hardly important now. Scusi.

ole

Lee was a poor stiff working for the government prior to the war, a school teacher, if you will. When he saw the war coming, he was about to lose his pigs and his beautiful farm to the yankee invasion. Enough to make a man take up arms. That's been my point all along?

larry_cockerham · #77 10-19-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 27thConn

No need to duck from me Larry. We agree to disagree. You will always cling to your opinion as I will cling to mine and neither will change the others mind.

From Lee's first breath to his last Virginia was part of the United States. Her status may have been in doubt between 1861-1865 but when the smoke cleared she was still a part of the United States. Lee was not even a gleam in his father's eye when the Constitution was ratified by Virginia so he can have no claim to being a citizen of a totaly independent Virginia. All his life he new the United States Government as the ruling power. He pledged his support to that Government, benifited from its institution of learning, rose to moderate fame in its service and turned his back on that Government when it offered him the highest military office. What did the state of Virginia do for Lee up to that point?

Up to that point, Virginia had given him life and a home. His father played a mighty big role in setting up the government for which he worked. Lee knew as well as anyone that the government was not perfect. That was the Confederate stance. When the line is drawn in the sand, one must look down to locate his toes and act accordingly.

larry_cockerham · #78 10-19-2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dred

Correct me if I am wrong, but at West Point and afterwards he was part of the "United States" Army and not the "State I was Born in, in this case Virginia" Army? He betrayed that government. He deserted the US military in favor of another government, took possesion of said governments propery, and opened fire on its proponents. If this is not "traitor" then I don't know what is. Great general? yes. Great American? not so much. Great southerner? Well since so many soutehrners consider themselves southerners first and Americans only by happenstance, I guess so.

I took the oath for God and Country, not for God and Country until I don't feel like it anymore and then my State.

Lee knew full well the consequences of his action to join the Confederate army. We often discuss here the notion that we have problems relating to conditions in 1861. This may be one of those times. Many think that Lee wasn't trying to assist in the dissolution of the Union, but merely to improve the political conditions for the southern members. Alas, that one can be argued for a while longer. Traitor ain't exactly the right word for a man who was about to sacrifice his well being for what he believed was right. Certainly a man with Lee's background knew the war effort was a decidedly uphill battle with no real hope of success. His neighbors were about to be part of a major ruckus. He was going to do his best to help. How much would a few hundred acres of land on the Patomic across from the mall be worth in dollars today? He threw in some mighty big chips.

Borderruffian · #79 10-19-2007, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5fish

The truth hurts at times!

WE MAY ALL THINK THE WORLD OF LEE, JACKSON, LONSTREET, FORREST, AND ALL THE OTHERS BUT THEY WERE TRAITORS BY ANY MEASURE.

WE MUST ALWAYS KEEP THAT IN THE BACK OF MIND.

They resigned their commissions in the U.S. Army (With the exception of Gen. Forrest) as is allowable they didn't desert. Upon resignation of their commissions and acceptance of same the oath they took as officers in the US Army is moot. They are no longer US Officers. You can't charge them with traitorous behavior if they had not yet committed such. Resigning a commission doesn't cut it.

Does acceptance of a CS commission make them traitors? I guess in a purely technical sense yes. However when we take our heads out of the 21st century and our 20/20 hindsight of the CW. You find that surprise they thought differently then.

Central goverment was not nearly as encompassing as it is now. People generally felt a far different alleigence to their state as it's gov. effected their lives more than the Central Goverment did.

While I may not agree with their decisions and their casting their lots with the south. I refuse to cast them as traitors no matter how many times you type it in capital letters.

It was a sad period of our history that happily turned out well. To cast about the word traitor to serve your agenda is the height of sectional dribble.

cw1865 · #80 10-19-2007, 11:01 PM

You have to remember that Lee, prior to secession is not only a citizen of the United States, but also a citizen of Virginia. The concept of state citizenship was a little more entrenched in the 19th century (you can see it in the Dred Scott decision), but it is still embodied in US Constitutional Law (you're still a citizen of the US and the state where you reside). While we commonly think of ourselves TODAY, as residents of a state, rather than citizens of a state, in 1860 that clearly was not the case.

Lee resigns his commision, his express duty of loyalty to the government no longer existed. At this point, the seceession occurs and the rebellion is so large and so pervasive that it is clear that any pre-existing duty of loyalty will need to be reaffirmed; and essentially this happens with people declaring either North or South.

You have to remember that the state governments that are seceding are the legitimately elected governments of those states which are doing something illegal under the Federal Constitution by seceding and joining the Confederacy; nevertheless those states are 'subsets' of the US. For me this removes the 'foreign' element that I personally require to declare somebody a 'traitor' - I need Benedict Arnold selling out to the British, I need the Rosenbergs selling nuclear secrets to the Soviets, I need John Walker Lindh fighting for the Taliban.

You can look at various causes throughout history and I would hardly call the leaders of those movements 'traitors' - Lenin, Castro, Franco, Mao, Cromwell, etc., etc. etc. , the one commonality of all of these causes is that they're all internal agents seeking to effect internal change and for me that makes all the difference.