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Actually .50-70 is a correct caliber for Springfield trap doors M1866's IIRC, the first Springfield Trap doors were CW arms sleeved down to .50 w/ a trapdoor breach though I'm not certain any US Cav were still caryying those in 1870... don't know off hand and not going to bother to look. There were a lot of M1863 Sharps Carbines converted to .50-70.
Thanks Shane. I stand corrected. I was unaware of the transition to the 45-70.
I weary of jumping into the Aboriginal American situation to tar the bluebelly. It's not a heroic tale, but it has little to do with the WBTS except, as you noted, to divert attention from it to another wrong; thereby casting a future pall on a past event.
As the old ads used to add: "specious placebo."
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Thanks Shane. I stand corrected. I was unaware of the transition to the 45-70.
I weary of jumping into the Aboriginal American situation to tar the bluebelly. It's not a heroic tale, but it has little to do with the WBTS except, as you noted, to divert attention from it to another wrong; thereby casting a future pall on a past event.
As the old ads used to add: "specious placebo."
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
The fire seems to be dying out (no pun re: Sherman intended) so allow me to throw some gasoline on it.
You guys seem to be able to dish it out pretty well but seem to have some trouble taking it. Something contrary hits the table... impeach the source and slay the messenger?
You guys seem to be able to dish it out pretty well but seem to have some trouble taking it. Something contrary hits the table... impeach the source and slay the messenger?
Di Lorenzo does his own impeaching. I will guarantee the quotes attributed to Sherman were made by Sherman, but they will be partials and taken out of context. If you want to verify Battalion's post, go right ahead. With Di Lorenzo, it's a waste of time.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
The fire seems to be dying out (no pun re: Sherman intended) so allow me to throw some gasoline on it.
You guys seem to be able to dish it out pretty well but seem to have some trouble taking it. Something contrary hits the table... impeach the source and slay the messenger?
... well... back to work. Have a good day!
Just very tired of checking Dilirenzo's sources and finding them invented, distorted etc. After the first round of finding the man creatively editing & twisting facts to mean what he wanted them to mean, inventing sources etc. Considering Dilorenzo a viable or reliable source for anything seems... well very Michael Mooreish for lack of a better term.
Jumping on Sherman & the US after the ACW for the treatment of Native Americans (not our finest moment by any means) conveniently ignores the fact that policies towards the Native Americans were the same under good ole Southern Presidents. Wonder if the poster who brought this up ever looked at Davis's views towards the Native American... or Buchannan, Jackson etc. Nothing changed in the treatment of the Native American for most of two centuries and the whole country was guilty not just the "sorry *** yankees" as Battalion is so fond of spouting.
If Battalion & his other incanations want to defend slavery as a legal enteprise merely coopted as a stick to beat the South w/... that's what I see the treatment of the Native Americans as when the Lost Causers bring it up. Never mind that there were quite a few ex CS soldiers in the ranks fighting the Indian or that several ex CS politicos agreed wholeheartedly w/ the policies... or the CS practices vs the Commanche & Kiowa during the CW.
Nobody has any right to be proud of their govt or it's reps (from the French & English through the US) in regards to the Native American. That said the Native American gave back every bit as good as they got, as I've said countless times it was a no quarter given and none asked type of conflict.
Jkeith you wonder why it is hard for some of this on this side of the aisle to take Battalion seriously? It's very difficult to when one recalls the use of Amazon customer reviews as a sources.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Incidently Ole, the .58 rimfire is an interesting study as it was the first trapdoor springfield.
Trapdoor Springfield: .58 Rimfire then .50-70 & I believe a .50-110 then .45-70 and finally the transition to .30-03 in the Krag & M1903 & eventually .30-06 in the classic M1903's & M1917's.
From 1855 until the short lived adoption of the Krag the US Army was using a rifle that was largely identical; in fact many parts were interchangeable between the first M1855 and the last Trapdoor Springfields.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Just very tired of checking Dilirenzo's sources and finding them invented, distorted etc. After the first round of finding the man creatively editing & twisting facts to mean what he wanted them to mean, inventing sources etc. Considering Dilorenzo a viable or reliable source for anything seems... well very Michael Mooreish for lack of a better term.
Jumping on Sherman & the US after the ACW for the treatment of Native Americans (not our finest moment by any means) conveniently ignores the fact that policies towards the Native Americans were the same under good ole Southern Presidents. Wonder if the poster who brought this up ever looked at Davis's views towards the Native American... or Buchannan, Jackson etc. Nothing changed in the treatment of the Native American for most of two centuries and the whole country was guilty not just the "sorry *** yankees" as Battalion is so fond of spouting.
If Battalion & his other incanations want to defend slavery as a legal enteprise merely coopted as a stick to beat the South w/... that's what I see the treatment of the Native Americans as when the Lost Causers bring it up. Never mind that there were quite a few ex CS soldiers in the ranks fighting the Indian or that several ex CS politicos agreed wholeheartedly w/ the policies... or the CS practices vs the Commanche & Kiowa during the CW.
Jkeith you wonder why it is hard for some of this on this side of the aisle to take Battalion seriously? It's very difficult to when one recalls the use of Amazon customer reviews as a sources.
Personal attacks, misrepresentation of views, name calling, etc, etc........
...In July of 1865 Sherman was put in charge of the Military District of the Missouri (all land west of the Mississippi) and given the assignment to eradicate the Plains Indians in order to make way for the federally subsidized transcontinental railroad. Like Lincoln, Sherman was a friend of Grenville Dodge, the chief engineer of the project. He was also a railroad investor and he lobbied his brother, Senator John Sherman, to allocate federal funds for the transcontinental railroad. "We are not going to let a few thieving, ragged Indians stop and check the progress of the railroad," he wrote to General Grant in 1867 (Fellman, p. 264). As Fellman writes:
[T]he great triumvirate of the Union Civil War effort [Grant, Sherman and Sheridan] formulated and enacted military Indian policy until reaching, by The 1880s, what Sherman sometimes referred to as "the final solution of the Indian problem," which he defined as killing hostile Indians and segregating their pauperized survivors in remote places . . . . These men applied their shared ruthlessness, born of their Civil War experiences, against a people all three despised, in the name of Civilization and Progress (emphasis added).
Another Sherman biographer, John F. Marszalek, points out in Sherman: A Soldier’s Passion for Order, that "Sherman viewed Indians as he viewed recalcitrant Southerners during the war and newly freed people after the war: resisters to the legitimate forces of an orderly society," by which he meant the central government. Moreover, writes Marszalek, Sherman’s philosophy was that "since the inferior Indians refused to step aside so superior American culture could create success and progress, they had to be driven out of the way as the Confederates had been driven back into the Union."
"Most of the other generals who took a direct role in the Indian wars, writes Marszalek, "were, like Sherman, [Union] Civil War luminaries." This included "John Pope, O.O. Howard, Nelson A. Miles, Alfred H. Terry, E.O.C. Ord, C.C. Augeur, and R.S. Canby. General Winfield Scott Hancock should be added to this list of "luminaries." Among the colonels, "George Armstrong Custer and Benjamin Grierson were the most famous."
Sherman and General Phillip Sheridan were associated with the statement that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian." The problem with the Indians, Sherman said, was that "they did not make allowance for the rapid growth of the white race" (Marszalek, p. 390). And, "both races cannot use this country in common" (Fellman, p. 263).
Sherman’s theory of white racial superiority is what led him to the policy of waging war against the Indians "till the Indians are all killed or taken to a country where they can be watched." As Fellman (p. 264) writes:
Sherman planted a racist tautology: Some Indians are thieving, killing rascals fit for death; all Indians look alike; therefore, to get some we must eliminate all . . . deduced from this racist tautology . . . the less destructive policy would be racial cleansing of the land . . .
Accordingly, Sherman wrote to Grant: "We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children." Writing two days later to his brother John, General Sherman said: "I suppose the Sioux must be exterminated . . ." (Fellman, p. 264). This was Sherman’s attitude toward Southerners during the War for Southern Independence as well. In a July 31, 1862 letter to his wife (from his Collected Works) he wrote that his purpose in the war was:
"Extermination, not of soldiers alone, that is the least part of the trouble, but the [Southern] people." His charming and nurturing wife Ellen wrote back that her fondest wish was for a war "of extermination and that all [Southerners] would be driven like the Swine into the sea." With this attitude, Sherman issued the following order to his troops at the beginning of the Indian Wars: "During an assault, the soldiers cannot pause to distinguish between male and female, or even discriminate as to age. As long as resistance is made, death must be meted out . . ." (Marszalek, p. 379).
Most of the raids on Indian camps were conducted in the winter, when families would be together and could therefore all be killed at once. Sherman gave Sheridan "authorization to slaughter as many women and children as well as men Sheridan or his subordinates felt was necessary when they attacked Indian villages" (Fellman, p. 271). All livestock was also killed so that any survivors would be more likely to starve to death.
Sherman was once brought before a congressional committee after federal Indian agents, who were supposed to be supervising the Indians who were on reservations, witnessed "the horror of women and children under military attack." Nothing came of the hearings, however. Sherman ordered his subordinates to kill the Indians without restraint to achieve what he called "the final solution of the Indian problem," and promised that if the newspapers found out about it he would "run interference against any complaints about atrocities back East" (Fellman, p. 271).
Eight years into his war of "extermination" Sherman was bursting with pride over his accomplishments. "I am charmed at the handsome conduct of our troops in the field," he wrote Sheridan in 1874. "They go in with the relish that used to make our hearts glad in 1864-5" (Fellman, p. 272).
Another part of Sherman’s "final solution" strategy against this "inferior race" was the massive slaughter of buffalo, a primary source of food for the Indians. If there were no longer any buffalo near where the railroad traveled, he reasoned, then the Indians would not go there either. By 1882 the American buffalo was essentially extinct... http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo40.html
Personal attacks, misrepresentation of views, name calling, etc, etc........
.....and this is from a "moderator"........
?? Huh? Name calling? Do tell. Personal attacks? Do tell. Misrep of views? Really? In conclusion; Get a thicker skin.
If you have complaints the little /!\ is there so you can use it. Ami or Mike will look at it and use their judgement; I trust their judgement, and contrary to your charges, I know they hold NO bias I trust their judgement. And again, A-Z forum is my only territory as a mod and you well know.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
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