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  #71  
Old 02-24-2006, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
To All,

An interesting and well posted set of articles on the issue of black confederate soldiers can be found at the 37th Texas web site:

The Black and The Gray
http://www.37thtexas.org/html/Wshcitypaper.html

I assure one and all, this is NOT a prounion site!

Sincerely,
Unionblue

THey're support of the SCV & stand against the KKK in Biloxi is what those proud of the CS SHOULD do... I agree w/ Neil, a good site well put together.
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  #72  
Old 02-24-2006, 10:40 AM
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Interesting-........

Black Laborers Impressed by the Confederate Government

District of the Gulf............4 Feb 1865.....AWOL......13 Mar 1865.....AWOL
Impressed..............................680........ ..122............889.............263
"Forrest captured negroes"........806...........18.............825.. ............29


It appears that the "Forrest captured negroes" were not under any close guard-...

...based on the numerous detachments (see 4 Feb. list- http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...79.TIF&view=75...begins bottom of page 957 to 958)....and how those not present are described as "absent without leave"......not "escaped"....

...and considering the very few that were AWOL (2%-3%) as compared to the impressed slaves/free blacks (18%-30%)....it also appears they were not very willing to escape and run back to the "loving arms" of the Federals.

*

Apparently they knew what was in store for them if they did-

...contraband camps, forced service in the Federal army, etc....

...the slaves...unaware.

*

4 Feb 1865
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...79.TIF&view=75

13 Mar 1865
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...F&pagenum=1056

Last edited by Battalion; 02-24-2006 at 11:05 PM.
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  #73  
Old 02-24-2006, 05:46 PM
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Battalion, I'm wondering what you are trying to prove? THe North was evil or slaves were happy being slaves.
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  #74  
Old 02-24-2006, 06:56 PM
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Johan_Steele,

I think he is trying to research some answers for me that I asked in previous posts.

My main point of contention is, slaves were not asked to work on fortifications or serve as teamsters, cooks, etc. Battalion has brought up the historically correct point that there were former slaves who were impressed by Union forces to labor on their fortifications and to serve in some military units. He is correct in supposing this was just as wrong as forcing people to be slaves.

My argument with him is in the matter of degree, not that the act was wrong.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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"The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass

"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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  #75  
Old 02-24-2006, 07:34 PM
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Neil; you're right.
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Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
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  #76  
Old 02-24-2006, 08:33 PM
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Default An apochriphal anecdote

From Craig Symonds in the article "The Ten Greatest Blunders of the Civil War" - North & South Magazine:

"As Pat Cleburne found out, not only did southern whites reject the notion [of arming its black population], it seems problematical at best that the southern blacks would have fought for the Confederacy. "Sure, we know how to shoot," one southern slave said when asked about the idea of serving in the army, "and we know who to shoot too.""

http://www.northandsouthmagazine.com...howpage&pid=35
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"It was a very peculiar time." - Franklin D. Cossitt

Ancestors in USA Army: 6th IA Inf, 11th IL Cav, 1st AL Cav; 122nd NY Inf; 6th MI Cav; 35th MA Inf; 100th IL Inf; 1st CO Inf/Cav; 22nd IN Inf

Ancestors in CSA Army: 2nd TN Inf (Walker's), 9th TN Cav (Bennett's/Ward's); 2nd TX Inf

Last edited by samgrant; 02-24-2006 at 08:36 PM.
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  #77  
Old 03-01-2006, 09:34 AM
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Default Black Confederates in the news & official reports

George Washington Williams (1849-1891), the first major American historian of African descent, and a Union veteran, said: "From the earliest dawn of the war the rebel authorities did not frown upon the action of local authorities in placing arms into the hands of free Negroes." (George Washington Williams, "History Of The Negro Race In America From 1619 To 1880, New York: GP Putnam's Sons, 1882, p.278)

A letter by Frank Bailey, 34th New York Volunteer Infantry, dated May 12, 1862, housed in the manuscript collections of Navarro College in Corsicana, Texas, states: "There is no mistake but the rebels have black soldiers for I have seen them brought in as prisoners of war. I saw one who had the stripes of a orderly sergeant on his coat."

In the reference work "North Carolina Troops", Volume I, the following Blacks are recorded by Union forces and identified (as Negroes) among the Confederates captured at Fort Fisher, NC , January 15, 1865:

Charles Dempsey, Private, Co. F, 36th NC Regiment (2nd NC Artillery)
Henry Dempsey, Private, " " " " " " "
J. Doyle, Private, Co. E, 40th NC Regiment, (3rd NC Artillery)

November 1, 1862 Evansville, Indiana Daily Journal: "Now the news comes to us that seven regiments of negroes have been drilled by the rebel authorities to man their fortifications in North and South Carolina...seven regiments (7000)of negroes, armed and equipped, had arrived at Wilmington,NC to occupy the various rebel fortresses..."

May 1, 1863 Winchester, Indiana Journal, in a letter by James G. Bates to his father: "I can assure you (Father)of a certainty, that the rebels have negro soldiers in their army. One of their best sharpshooters, and the boldest of them all here is a negro. He dug himself a rifle pit last night (April 16, 1863)just across the river and has been annoying our pickets opposite him very much today. You can see him plain enough with the naked eye, occasionally, to make sure that he is a 'wooly-head', and with a spy glass there is no mistaking him."

Official Records, Ser. I, Vol. XVI, part 1, page 805, Lt.Col. Parkhurst's report (Ninth Michigan Infantry), on Forrest's attack at Murfreesboro, TN, July 13, 1862: "There were also quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped, and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day."

Official Records, Ser. I, Vol. 15, part 1, pp. 137-138, report of the Union commander: "Pickets were thrown out that night, and Captain Hennessy, Company E, of the Ninth Connecticut, having been sent out with his company, captured a colored rebel scout, well mounted, who had been sent out to watch our movements."

Official Records, Ser. I, Vol. XLIX, part II, pg. 253, April 6, 1865: "The rebels (Forrest) are recruiting negro troops at Enterprise, Miss.,and the negroes are all enrolled in the state."

Official Records, Ser. I, Vol. XIV, pg. 24, second paragraph, Colonel B.C. Christ, 50th Pennsylvania Infantry, report of May 30, 1862, regarding CSA forces opposing him at Pocotaligo, SC: "It is also difficult to state the force of the enemy, but it could not have been less than from 600 to 800. There were six companies of mounted riflemen, besides infantry, among which were a considerable number of colored men."

Official Records, Ser. II, Vol. VI, part 1, pp.17-18: "before one single negro or mulatto was mustered into the U.S. service you had them organized in arms in Louisiana. You had Indians and half-breed negroes and Indians organized in arms under Albert Pike, in Arkansas. Subsequently, negroes were captured on the battle field at Antietam and delivered as prisoners of war at Aiken's Landing to the Confederate authorities, and receipted for and counted in exchange."

Official Records, Vol. XIII, Chapter XXV, pg. 688: "We are not likely to use one negro where the rebels have used a thousand. When I left Arkansas they were still enrolling negroes to fortify the rebellion." (Sept. 1862)

Official Records, Correspondence, Etc., Vol. XIX, Chapter XXXI, pg. 617, Record of the Harper's Ferry Military Commission (US Army):

Q: Do you know of any individual of the enemy having been killed or wounded during the siege of Harper's Ferry?
A: I have strong reasons to believe that there was a negro killed, who had wounded 2 or 3 of my men. I know that an officer took deliberate aim at him, and he fell over. He was one of the skirmishers of the enemy, and wounded 3 of my men. I know there must have been some of the enemy killed.
Q: How do you know the negro was killed?
A: The officer saw him fall.

Official Records, Ser. I, Vol. IV, p. 569, Report of Colonel John W. Phelps, First Vermont Infantry, Camp Butler, Newport News, Va., August 11, 1861: "They had twenty pieces of artillery, among which was the Richmond Howeitzer Battery, manned by negroes ...Their numbers are probably overrated; but with regard to their artillery,and its being manned in part by negroes, I think the report is probably correct."

Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 35, pt. 1, pp. 442-443, Report of Brig. Gen. Asboth (USA): "We pursued them closely for 7 miles, and captured 4 privates of Goldsby's (Alabama cavalry) company and 3 colored men, mounted and armed, with 7 horses and 5 mules with equipments, and 20 Austrian rifles."

Official Records, Ser. I, Vol. XVII, Chapter XXIX, Report of Brig. Gen.
D. Stuart,(USA), December 28, 1863; pp. 635-637: "It had to be prosecuted under the fire of the enemy's sharpshooters, protected as well as the men might be by our skirmishers on the bank, who were ordered to keep up so vigorous a fire that the enemy should notdare to lift their heads above their rifle pits; but the enemy, and especially their armed negroes, did dare to rise and fire, and did serious execution upon our men."

Official Records, Ser. I, Vol. III, Correspondence, etc., pp. 767-768; Cambridge, September 4, 1863. To his Excellency, A. Lincoln, President of the United States:

"...excitement here growing out of the recruiting of colored troops, and as some of the recruiting officers are acting rather indiscreetly, I fear, by taking slaves in their recruits, and the slaves of loyal as well as disloyal persons, to enlist slaves as well as free people is creating a great deal of anxiety among the people...we ought to use the colored people, after the rebels commenced to use them against us."

"Civil War Curiosities", by Webb Garrison (1994, Rutledge Hill Press, p. 107): "Like some of their counterparts in the North, a few Southern officers made unofficial and irregular use of Black soldiers. From start to finish, an estimated four hundred of them served in the Eighteenth Virginia and other units raised in the state."

"Into The Fight - Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg", by John Michael Priest, White Mane Books (1998), pp. 128,130-131: "Color Corporal George B. Powell (14th Tennessee) went down during the advance. The colors of the 14th Tennessee got within fifty feet of the east wall before Boney Smith (Black) hit the dirt, wounded. Jabbing the flagstaff in the ground, he momentarily urged the regiment forward until the intense pressure forced the men to lie down to save their lives."

July 24, 1863 "New York Herald": "Among the rebel prisoners who were marched through Gettysburg there were observed seven negroes in uniform and fully accoutred as soldiers."

In the 1889 book "The Pictoial Book of Anecdotes and Incidents of the Rebellion", p.319, by Frazier Kirkland, a collection of Grand Army of the Republic (GAR), is a lengthy story of a Negro rifleman (Confederate)brought down at Yorktown.

March 12, 1863 "Indianapolis Daily Evening Gazette", in reference to a March 5, 1863 fight around Thompson's Station, Tennessee, the correspondent from the 85th Indiana Vol. Infantry reported "It has been stated, repeatedly, for two weeks past, that a large number, perhaps one-fourth, of Van Dorn's force were negro soldiers..."
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  #78  
Old 03-01-2006, 05:09 PM
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To All,

To me, what is extremely bad for the South, in spite of all these wonderful examples of blacks who showed the ability to fight for their southern nation, is the inability of Southern whites, whose social attitudes of the time, would not give whole-hearted support to them to do so.

What a difference it might have made, if history had been altered and Cleburne's memo had been approved, right off the bat. That slaves would have been given freedom for their military service and their families freed with them and not broken up and sold to other slaveholders.

Think of the effect of 200,000 fully armed former slaves, fighting right along side Lee's Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg or marching to the relief of Vicksburg.

It makes the idea of former slaves and free blacks who did fight for the South and have left documented evidence of their service all the more perplexing to me. I am certain that it did happen. What puzzles me is why the majority of those who proudly put forth this theory do not go more into detail as to why it had so little effect and why it was too little, too late.

We are given the recorded facts of instances where it happened and yet very little information on why in the end it made no difference or on the reasons it met with so little sucess. While it is fine to give honor to the black men, free and slave, who found the courage to fight for the land they lived in and loved, why is it necessary to only talk about this aspect of slaves and not go into the reasons black soldiers serving as equals in the Confederate army failed.

When you strip away the ORs, reports and letters, what did the majority of the citizens of the South really feel towards the idea of arming 200,000 slaves and freeing their families? How did they react? And most importantly, why the long wait in the face of obvious oncoming military defeat if this source of manpower was recognized so early in the war?

Because the black slave was never recognized as an equal. He was never recognized as anything but inferior and that slavery was the best position he and his kind could ever hope for in a Southern Confederacy. And it was this attitude, fully present, alive and well, and never receding even in the last days of the Confederacy, is what filled black Union ranks, made hundreds of thousands of slaves flee their homes and former masters whenever a Union army came close.

I'm all for recognizing brave men and their service. I am not for creating smokescreens blocking out portions of history with that service.

Unionblue
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"The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass

"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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  #79  
Old 03-01-2006, 09:33 PM
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Neil, your'e still looking at this thru blue lenses. Also remember the nightly news wasn't often on the screen in 1862. Many many many soldiers in the Confederate army weren't tuned into Jeff Davis, and obviously he wasn't paying much attention to them. Man beside man, life was a different story. Down in the trenches and behind the rocks and trees the northern press was mostly unavailable. Like today, it might have made good tinder or a cat target. Please Sir, give the blacks a little credit for original thought and rationality. All whites didn't draw the same conclusions, I suspect that might have been universal.

Last edited by larry_cockerham; 03-01-2006 at 09:35 PM.
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  #80  
Old 03-02-2006, 08:21 AM
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Larry,

I am truly sorry if you feel that I am looking at this with blue lenses. I wear tri-focals

No tint of any kind.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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