Civil War History - General DiscussionFor Discussions on Civil War Era Personalities, Politics, Issues, Campaigns, Battles, and more. Serious Civil War Discussions Only Please! All other posts will be deleted.
Dear Shane,
In the 1860s, for blacks to be brave and effective soldiers would be heresy for secessionists, and the great hope for African Americans and abolitionists. A key test of citizenship in many cultures, then and now, is the willingness to fight for your country, to have the fortitude to face danger, and finally to be formidable enough to defend your freedom.
As Frederick Douglass famously said: if the black men gets the uniform of his country, a weapon and ammunition then no one can call him less than a man and a citizen.
For those Southerners who needed an inferior caste to work the plantations, and an ideology of racism to justify the inferior caste, armed black men were a fatal contradiction. For Northerners who held similar racist beliefs, there was an effort to discriminate against, insult and playdown black contributions to the war effort.
...
Well said. Here is what one of the South's foremost politicians in 1860-61 had to say about slaves as soldiers in January of 1865, after Hood was smashed at Nashville, after Sherman had taken Savannah, as Lee and the ANV suffered through the Winter at Petersburg and Richmond.
=======
HDQRS. GEORGIA RESERVES AND MIL. DIST. OF GEORGIA,
Macon, Ga., January 8, 1865.
Hon. JAMES A. SEDDON,
Secretary of War, Richmond, Va.:
SIR: Your letter of the 30th of December received by yesterday's mail. ... I think that the proposition to make soldiers of our slaves is the most pernicious idea that has been suggested since the war began. It is to me a source of deep mortification and regret to see the name of that good and great man and soldier, General R. E. Lee, given as authority for such a policy. My first hour of despondency will be the one in which that policy shall be adopted. You cannot make soldiers of slaves, nor slaves of soldiers. The moment you resort to negro soldiers your white soldiers will be lost to you; and one secret of the favor with which the proposition is received in portions of the Army is the hope that when negroes go into the Army they will be permitted to retire. It is simply a proposition to fight the balance of the war with negro troops. You can't keep white and black troops together, and you can't trust negroes by themselves. It is difficult to get negroes enough for the purpose indicated in the President's message, much less enough for an Army. Use all the negroes you can get, for all the purposes for which you need them, but don't arm them. The day you make soldiers of them is the beginning of the end of the revolution. If slaves will make good soldiers our whole theory of slavery is wrong--but they won't make soldiers. As a class they are wanting in every qualification of a soldier. Better by far to yield to the demands of England and France and abolish slavery, and thereby purchase their aid, than to resort to this policy, which leads as certainly to ruin and subjugation as it is adopted; you want more soldiers, and hence the proposition to take negroes into the Army. Before resorting to it, at least try every reasonable mode of getting white soldiers. I do not entertain a doubt that you can by the volunteering policy get more men into the service than you can arm. I have more fears about arms than about men. For heaven's sake try it before you fill with gloom and despondency the hearts of many of our truest and most devoted men by resorting to the suicidal policy of arming our slaves.
...
Sincerely, yours,
HOWELL COBB,
Major-general.
===========
You can say he was delusional about the military situation, but his attitude on slaves as soldiers was clear. In February 1865, when the Confederate House of Representatives voted for the "Negro Soldier" bill, a third of them were still opposed, even with Robert E. Lee supporting it and the situation grown more desperate.
#337
The letter below appears to be Lovell's request, and it simply specifies "volunteers and militia to the number of 10,000 men". Moore called up the 1st Native Guard a month later. They had been dissolved February 15 and the governor had arranged a parade of some 25,000 militia (almost 80% unarmed) through the city in February. Most of the armed men seem to have been used to fullfill the request for troops for Beauregard, leaving the unarmed men mostly. Lovell would have known that white men could be furnished and would have had no reason to specify the Native Guard.
HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT No. 1,
New Orleans, La., February 25, 1862.
His Excellency Gov. THOMAS O. MOORE:
SIR: I have the honor to make requisition upon you for volunteers and militia to the number of 10,000 men, to be placed in camp and held ready for defense at short notice.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
M. LOVELL,
Major-General, Commanding.
So all evidence seems to be the governor decided to do this on his own (ignoring the new state law in the process.)
Regards,
Tim
"So all evidence seems to be the governor decided to do this on his own"
Sure about that?
~~~
Timeline of events-
12 February 1862, (Lovell to Benjamin)
Lovell expresses displeasure over new militia act-
"I received yesterday your dispatch directing me to send 5,000 men to Columbus....I...shall go to work at once to endeavor to organize a force for the defense of the interior lines from the volunteers and militia of this city and State. Unfortunately, the legislature passed a law at its late session reorganizing the whole militia, which has to be done at a very inconvenient moment, but I am in hopes that most of the volunteers will elect their company and field officers on the instant, so that we shall soon have a force on hand. I regret the necessity of sending away my only force at this particular juncture, and feel sure that it will create a great panic here, but will do my best to restore confidence by a show of strength." http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=825
~~~
25 February 1862
Governor Moore, at request of General Lovell, calls for 10,000 militia...
...because the department had been completely stripped of troops-
8 March 1862 (Lovell to Benjamin)
"You will thus perceive that this department has been completely stripped of every organized body of troops. To replace them I have called upon Governor Moore for 10,000 volunteers militia for the defense of the lines about New Orleans, which call, I hope, will meet with the approval of the Government." http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=847
~~~
22 March 1862 (Benjamin to Lovell)
Secretary Of War approves call for troops-
"Your call on Governor Moore for troops to replace those sent to Tennessee is approved." http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=864
~~~
24 March 1862
Governor recalls Native Guard-
"ORDERS No. 426,
HEADQUARTERS LOUISIANA MILITIA,
Adjutant-General's Office, March 24, 1862.
I. The Governor and commander-in-chief, relying implicitly upon the loyalty of the free colored population of the city and State for the protection of their homes, their property, and for Southern rights from the pollution of a ruthless invader, and believing that the military organization which existed prior to the 15th of February, 1862, and elicited praise and respect for the patriotic motives which prompted it, should exist for and during the war, calls upon them to maintain their organization, and to hold themselves prepared for such orders as may be transmitted to them.
II. The colonel commanding will report without delay to Major-General Lewis, commanding State Militia.
I know of no objection Lovell ever raised about the recall of these troops.
~~~
Side-post-
13 March 1862 (President Davis to Governor Moore)
Martial law declared by President Davis-
"You are requested to proclaim martial law in my name over the parishes of Orleans, Jefferson, Saint Bernard, and Plaquemine." http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=856
~~~
15 March 1862
Col. Henry D. Ogden (commander of Native Guard...supposedly disbanded 15 February 1862) assigned Provost Martial of District 4, Orleans Parish (New Orleans)
"The following-named persons are appointed provost-marshal for Orleans Parish:
William Freret, first district; Cyprian Dufour, second district; Honorable Pierre Soule, third district; Colonel H. D. Ogden, fourth district. For Algiers, Captain Norbert Trapagnier; for Jefferson Parish, Judge Victor Burthe;-who will enter upon the discharge of the duties of their offices immediately." http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=858
And your above post disproves the resistance to the use of black troops by the State and Confederate government how?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
And your above post disproves the resistance to the use of black troops by the State and Confederate government how?
Unionblue
It disproves it in this instance...
...where are any objections made?
~
Whether specifically mentioned or not...
...they were part of an official call up of troops...
...requisitioned by a Confederate general...
...with the approval of the Confederate Secretary of War.
~
...but what I am really interested in-
...were any of them involved in the fighting at the Chalmette line...
..were any of them involved in the fighting at the Chalmette line...
You have become the expert on the defense of New Orleans -- digging into it deeper than I've ever cared to. I'd say it's likely that a few of them were, as state militia, but I'm not going to look it up.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Dear Tim,
I am familiar with Cobb quote, "our whole system is wrong..." in Bruce Levine's book, "Confederate Emancipation," there are a couple of quotes which states explicitly that effective black soldiers destroys the ideological underpinning of slavery.
Of course, black men had been valued soldiers from the Revolution on. At least one minuteman on Lexington Green was black, and thousands served in the ranks of both Washington's and British ranks. There were thousands of black seamen in the Navy's history, which didn't practice segregation until the 20th century. And of course the tens of thousands in the USCT, followed by the famous "buffalo soldiers" during the Indian wars and the Spanish American War. And that's not counting the 20th century.
I must say that most white Americans were able to continue to justify their belief in black inferiority despite any amount of evidence to the contrary. Racism, being an irrational prejudice, doesn't seem to be amendable to empirical evidence. At least not in the short run.
In Levine's book, calls for the Confederacy to enlist tens of thousands of slaves into the army went hand in hand with plans to perpetuate the inferior status of blacks.
Paine's Cross-Roads (aka "Paineville"), 5 April 1865
Report of Brigadier General Henry E. Davies, Jr., U. S. Army, commanding First Brigade-
HDQRS. FIRST Brigade, SECOND DIV., CAVALRY CORPS,
Nottoway Court-House, April 14, 1865.
"...On the morning of..[April] 5th I moved out from camp under instructions to make a reconnaissance on the enemy's rear and ascertain the position of his trains. Passing through Amelia Springs I moved to Paineville and there learned that General Lee's wagon train was passing a point about four miles from that town. I immediately moved down at the trot, sending the First Pennsylvania Cavalry, my advance, ahead at the gallop, and they succeeded in striking the train just as a piece of artillery had been placed in position to repel my advance. Before the piece could be loaded my men, charging through a deep swamp, were upon them and at once captured the artillery and men belonging to the battery and scattered the train guard at that point, of about 400 men, in all directions. I sent two regiments (First Pennsylvania and Twenty-fourth New York) at once to the right, along the length of the train, directing them to capture all animals and prisoners and destroy all wagons, as owing to the condition of the road and the exhausted state of the teams I did not deem it practicable to bring off the wagons. The First New Jersey I kept near the point where the train was first attacked, to act as a reserve and support and to reconnoiter to the left, and to the Tenth New York I gave the charge of the prisoners, guns, &c., captured, with directions to return with them to Jetersville as soon as were collected. The commanding officers of these regiments each executed the orders given them with fidelity and zeal, and in a short time I was on my return to Jetersville with 5 guns, 11 flags, 320 white prisoners, and equal number of colored teamsters, and over 400 animals, captured from the enemy, leaving behind me 200 blazing ammunition had headquarters wagons, caissons, and ambulances...."
~
"...April 14, 1865.
Received from the provost-marshal First Brigade, Second Division, Cavalry Corps, during the campaign from March 29, 1865, to April 14, 1865:
Captures.
...
April 5...
Prisoners of war........320
Colored teamsters.....310
Battle-flags...............11
Guns and teams...........5 [30 horses]
...."
Report of Major Walter R. Robbins, First New Jersey Cavalry-
"....At 3 o'clock on the following morning [April 5th] our brigade was moving toward that place. Arriving at Paine's Cross-Roads General Davies learned that the enemy's wagon train was but a short distance off. Pushing rapidly on we soon struck the advance guard, consisting of one brigade of cavalry, one regiment of infantry, and a battery of artillery. General Davies at once charged and routed this force, captured a large number of prisoners, 5 pieces of artillery, 180 wagons, 340 horses and mules. The wagons were all burned; the prisoners, artillery, and animals were all brought off. In this charge five battle-flags were captured...."
An account from the Confederate Veteran magazine (Vol 23, No.9, p.404)-
"UNION ATTACK ON CONFEDERATE NEGROES.
R. M. Doswell, of Norfolk, Va., gives the following incident in the Times-Dispatch:
On Tuesday [April 4th] or Wednesday [5th] following the evacuation of Richmond, on returning from carrying an order from Gen. Rethel Barton, I saw a wagon train guarded by Confederate negro soldiers, a novel sight to me. When within about one hundred yards of and in the rear of the wagon train, I observed some Union cavalry a short distance away on elevated ground forming to charge and the negro soldiers forming to meet the attack, which was met sucessfully, the Union cavalry retreating. Not observing the Union cavalry further, I was preparing to inquire whose wagon train it was. The cavalry charged again, and the negro soldiers surrendered..."
Richard M. Doswell (First_Last)
Regiment Name Barton's Staff; General and Staff Officers, Corps, Division and Brigade Staff...Staff Departments, C.S.A.
Side Confederate
Soldier's Rank_In 1 Lieutenant and A.D.C.
Soldier's Rank_Out http://www.itd.nps.gov/cwss/soldiers.htm
Report of Brigadier General Henry E. Davies, Jr., U. S. Army, commanding First Brigade-
HDQRS. FIRST Brigade, SECOND DIV., CAVALRY CORPS,
Nottoway Court-House, April 14, 1865.
...
Yes, this has always been known and has already been mentioned several times. These men are the same as the "black Confederates" seen marching through Richmond just before the Battle of Five Forks, when Sheridan smashed the Confederate flank and the retreat to Appomattox started. There are roughly 2 companies of them, and the total strength is usually given as 100 men or a little more. They were enrolled after the Confederate "Negro Soldier" bill passed in March of 1865. This is the only verifiable example of "black Confederate" soldiers seeing combat.
It appears I am going to pass through this site on a tour of the Appomattox retreat sites early next year. The group hotel is actually in Farmville, where these men were seen later in the retreat digging some entrenchments.
It appears I am going to pass through this site on a tour of the Appomattox retreat sites early next year. The group hotel is actually in Farmville, where these men were seen later in the retreat digging some entrenchments.
Tim, sounds great- Enjoy!! Report back!
regards, ed
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
Yes, this has always been known and has already been mentioned several times. These men are the same as the "black Confederates" seen marching through Richmond just before the Battle of Five Forks, when Sheridan smashed the Confederate flank and the retreat to Appomattox started. There are roughly 2 companies of them, and the total strength is usually given as 100 men or a little more. They were enrolled after the Confederate "Negro Soldier" bill passed in March of 1865. This is the only verifiable example of "black Confederate" soldiers seeing combat.
It appears I am going to pass through this site on a tour of the Appomattox retreat sites early next year. The group hotel is actually in Farmville, where these men were seen later in the retreat digging some entrenchments.
Regards,
Tim
The actual site may be a few miles east of Paineville
Federal report-
"...I moved to Paineville and there learned that General Lee's wagon train was passing a point about four miles from that town. I immediately moved down at the trot, sending the First Pennsylvania Cavalry, my advance, ahead at the gallop, and they succeeded in striking the train just as a piece of artillery had been placed in position to repel my advance. Before the piece could be loaded my men, charging through a deep swamp..."
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
