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I know. But do you have a better explanation of why Frederic Douglass would claim, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels." Or why Dr. Lewis Steiner (a Union man) would report, "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army." He made this observation of General Jackson's occupation of Fredrick, Maryland in 1862.
White Confederate soldiers brought their slaves to war and they ended up soldiers is probably the most common way that blacks became soldiers.
Why did Moses Ezekiel, a Jewish Confederate, portray a black Confederate soldier in the amazing memorial he sculpted in 1914?
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
One other consideration is the fact that segregation was a general fact in the Union states. Such was not the case in the South. Blacks were dispersed throughout the CSA only because of their point of origin. They too, were fighting for their homes as well as their freedom and that of their brothers.
I take it you are suggesting that Servants = Black CS Soldiers? So if that is true did they count toward the exchange number when captured and paroled? If so why was the CS gov unwilling to treat captured USCT men so? The answer is simple, they didn't consider Black soldiers as men; and they certainly didn't consider servants as soldiers.
Would you care to put forward any evidence that Black CS soldiers fought at Vicksburg and were captured along w/ the rest of the garrison? There are ample rolls of captured men existant... surely a man like Sherman would have noted masses of Black CS soldiers and noted such.
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
Modernly many of the roles that the black slaves served in would be considered as those of soldiers. This includes teamsters, musicians, foragers, body servants (aide de camp or grooms), laborers (ditch diggers or ahem, pioneers/engineers). Some did fight as slaves but with consent of their owners. However, until the last months of the war, slaves were not officially allowed to serve as soldiers in the Confederacy.
I take it you are suggesting that Servants = Black CS Soldiers? So if that is true did they count toward the exchange number when captured and paroled? If so why was the CS gov unwilling to treat captured USCT men so? The answer is simple, they didn't consider Black soldiers as men; and they certainly didn't consider servants as soldiers.
Would you care to put forward any evidence that Black CS soldiers fought at Vicksburg and were captured along w/ the rest of the garrison? There are ample rolls of captured men existant... surely a man like Sherman would have noted masses of Black CS soldiers and noted such.
You always seem to insinuate that I am "suggesting" something...and then go into some further diatribe based on those assumptions.
I find this strange from someone who is suppose to be a moderator.
If there is anything I am suggesting...it's just what I've posted-
...servants were "on duty in the trenches."
I'm a bit perplexed at the apparent need to prove that (a) there were a great many black confederate soldiers, or (b) there were hardly any at all.
With 4MM slaves and a goodly number of free blacks in the south, you gotta figure that some of them were of a mind to pick up a rifle now and then. Evidence has been presented of Yanks being fired on by blacks. Chances are the blacks were not in any kind of uniform, but the idea that some applied for and received pensions would indicate an official recognition of sorts -- "teamster" substitutions notwithstanding.
I conclude that black confederates somehow make a part of our group feel better about the treatment of blacks in the south, and that the absence of them proves to the opposing part of our group that slaves universally hated their masters. I submit that the existence or absence of black troops prove nothing other than the diversity of human motivation.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Ole, well said as usual and I agree wholeheartedly. Black men served the CS both willingly and unwillingly w/ the majority IMHO being unwilling. But those who served deserve respect regardless of their motivation.
Battalion, I have an opinion and the last time I checked I was allowed to express it. If this offends you... I will not apologize for giving and opinion and asking questions. If you are unable or unwilling to answer them; that's your option.
Just for your gratification Battalion I am the moderator of the A-Z section of this forum. While I may ask people to "knock it off" or to behave I do not have the power to censor/censure anyone or to lock threads that power is reserved for the Supermods Mike & Ami. While I will pass on complaints, compliments or concerns to them. They act upon them; not I.
If you are offended by my posts it is very simple to place me upon your ignore list. If you need instructions upon how to do this feel free to PM and I'll try & walk you through it.
Once again, the ! in the corner of each post is to report a complaint to the supermods.
As it is I bid you a good day.
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
From the book, Confederate Emancipation, by Bruce Levine.
To talk about using slaves as soldiers, however, Richmond stubbornly turned a deaf ear. In July 1861, Albert Taylor Bledsoe, then chief of the Bureau of War, bluntly informed Arkansan W. S. Turner that his department was "not prepared to accept" Turner's offer to raise a black regiment. And when General Richard S. Ewell urged the Confederate president to enlist slaves during the war's first summer, an appalled Jefferson Davis dismissed the idea out of hand. It was "stark madness," Davis exclaimed, that "would revolt and disgust the whole South." Davis and his cabinet knew that those who urged such a course early in the war represented a distinct minority of the South's white population and an even smaller proportion of its slaveholders.
Reflecting the views of the overwhelming majority, the Confederate government would tolerate no slaves--indeed, no men at all who were not certifiably white--under arms. Yes, a few individual southern communities (such as New Orleans and Mobile) permitted some free people of color to serve in home guard and other local-defense units. In March of 1862, Louisiana's governor commended "the loyalty of the free native colored population" of New Orleans and called upon its standing militia unit to remain at the ready. The Alabama legislature authorized Mobile's mayor to enroll free black males there into locally assigned militia companies. But these localized exceptions to the rule whould not be permitted to overthrow the rule itself. That much became clear just a month later, when a prominent Mobile citizen offered to raise "a battalion or regiment of creoles" to serve in the regular Confederate army. These men, this gentleman testified, were "mostly property-owners," including slaveowners, and were "as true to the South as the pure white race" even though they "are of mixed blooded." But that last detail constituted reason enough for the War Department to spurn the offer.
The subject came up again in late 1863. This time it was Maj. Gen. Dabney H. Maury, of the Confederate Department of the Gulf, who proposed enlisting a unit of Mobile "creoles." It was true, Maury acknowledged, that these men "have, many of them, negro blood in the degree which disqualifies other persons of negro race [sic] from the rights of citizens." But because of the peculiarities of local history, he explained, "they do not stand here on the footing of negroes." Under the terms by which the United States originally acquired this part of the continent, such creoles had been "guaranteed all the immunities and privileges of the citizens of the United States, and have continued to enjoy them up to this time." Mobile's congressman endorsed Maury's initiative. Yet Secretary of War James A. Seddon remained adamant. If Mobile's creoles could be "naturally and properly" distinguished from blacks, then they could be allowed to don the gray. IF, however, they could not be thus "disconnected from negroes," General Maury could employ them only as military laborers ("as 'navies,' to use the English term") or for some other types of "subordinate working purposes."
I submit that while there may have been, as indicated above, some local attempts at providing negroes or slaves as soldiers, this did not represent the overall view of the Confederate or Southern viewpoint. It was only, when Confederate fortunes on the battlefield had turned so dramatically against them, did any attempt at discussion on the idea of arming the slaves come up for debate.
More to follow,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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