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There are over 300 black applicants for Confederate pensions in South Carolina.
Most designate themselves as cooks, teamsters, servants, etc.
The six that I posted...do not.
I have not reviewed the entire 300.
You say there are "over 300 black applicants for Confederate pensions in South Carolina" and that most were cooks, etc. So far you have six you want to claim as "black Confederate" soldiers. To give us a sense of proportion, how many white applicants were there?
I don't know how many actual soldiers SC provided to the Confederate cause. It looks like about 17,500 or so died in service.
The Native Guards, of course, were not called to service under the Confederacy, surrendered when New Orleans fell and many of their members appear to have served as soldiers for the first Union units from LA.
You say there are "over 300 black applicants for Confederate pensions in South Carolina" and that most were cooks, etc. So far you have six you want to claim as "black Confederate" soldiers. To give us a sense of proportion, how many white applicants were there?
I don't know how many actual soldiers SC provided to the Confederate cause. It looks like about 17,500 or so died in service.
Regards,
Tim
The black Confederates were awarded pensions in the mid 1920s.
The number of whites receiving pensions during that time....
...would have to be known......to get a "sense of proportion."
If the question is still about blacks "fighting" for the Confederacy, then those gentlemen who are listed as applying for pensions don't really prove a point. I see where they served with the Confederate army, but did they do any shooting at yankees?
One of the pension papers lists the applicant as a "negro servant'. Another, Mr. Johnston, states he was shot through the head. The implication would be that he was very near some fighting, but was he shooting also? Isn't the question still about blacks fighting for the Confederacy? Nobody disputes that there were blacks serving in the Confederate army. And I believe that there is stated somewhere that there were even a very few who did fight for the Confederacy, though not many. I don't understand what the argument is about at this point.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
Originally Posted by trice You say there are "over 300 black applicants for Confederate pensions in South Carolina" and that most were cooks, etc. So far you have six you want to claim as "black Confederate" soldiers. To give us a sense of proportion, how many white applicants were there?
I don't know how many actual soldiers SC provided to the Confederate cause. It looks like about 17,500 or so died in service.
Regards,
Tim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The black Confederates were awarded pensions in the mid 1920s.
The number of whites receiving pensions during that time....
...would have to be known......to get a "sense of proportion."
That is, of course, what I asked for. If you want to come to any reasonable conclusion, you will need that information. Otherwise, you won't have any idea at all of the value of the data you discover.
BTW, why do you put all the dots in your sentences? Normally, the use of "..." is to indicate you left something out.
I wouldn't know, never having seen a comparison of the entire regimental roll. However, here is a list of a single company from the secessionist militia regiment and where the men eventually served in the Federal forces. Looks like "many" to me.
Muster Roll of Order Company, Louisiana Native Guards
(Louisiana Militia, in Confederate Service, 1861-62)
Name Rank Eventual Service in United States Forces
Sentmanat, Charles Cpt. 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Cailloux, André 1st Lieut. 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Derbigny, Théophile 2nd Lieut.
Lavigne, V. S. L. Sgt. Major
Petit, Louis 1st Sgt.
Ferrand, Baptiste, Sr. 2nd Sgt. 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Glapion, Joseph 3rd Sgt.
St. Cyr, Clement 4th Sgt. 3rd Regt. La. Native Guards
Washington, Maurice Cpl.
Francois, Joseph "
Ferrand, Baptiste, fils " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Jolibois, Joseph "
St. Amand, Joseph "
Lavigne, Henry "
Alcide, Joseph Private 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Alcine, Louis "
Allougas, Gustave "
Armstrong, Joseph "
Ascendio, Joseph "
Athénos, Ernest " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Bébelle, Joseph " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Benjamin, Antoine " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Bercy, Edouard " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Bernard, Joseph " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Bernard, Jules " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Blancand, B. " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Borée, Louis " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Boustillos, Antoine " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Calliole, Jean "
Cannelle, Pierre, Jr. "
Casimir, Lucien "
Caspian, Joseph " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Cassenave, R. C. "
Cassino, A. " 2nd La. Native Guards
Castille, R. " 3rd Regt. La. Native Guards
Cerrere, Etienne " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Clément, Louis "
Delpit, Louis "
Dumas, Charles " 6th La. Regiment (colored)
Durand, Jean " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Duvernay, Jean "
Eugene, Elie Joseph " 6th La.Rgt. (Colored)
Farrar, Emile " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Ferbos, Victor "
Ferrand, Joseph, III " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Ferrand, Jr., Joseph " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Ferrand, Louis " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Fleury, Joseph " 2nd Regt. La. Native Guards
Forégane, Oscar "
Forestier, Jean "
Germain, Jean " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Glapion, Télesphore (/) "
Guillaume, Georges " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Guillaume, Joseph, fils " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Handy, Etienne " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Hippolyte, Francois " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Hippolyte, Louis " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Jacques, Arthur "
Jannieau, Baptiste "
Jean Baptiste, Etienne " 6th La. Regt. )Colored)
Lavigne, Louis "
Lazare, Louis " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Legra, Jacques "
Legros, Lous "
Lépine, Joseph " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Lopes, Alphonse "
Louis, Charles " 3rd Regt. La. Native Guards
Magloire, Casimir "
Manuel, Louis " 2nd Regt. La. Native Guards
Marcelin, John " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Marie, Murville "
Maurice, Augustin " 91st Regt. USCInf
Montiague, Jules " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Morphy, Jules " 91st Regt. USCT
Morray, Millien "
Page, Louis " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Pepe, Hippolyte " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
Ribaud, Jean "
Theverette, Simon "
Thomassin, Benjamin " 6th La. Regt (Colored)
Toregane, Michel "
Toussaint, Auguste " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Trépagnier, Francis "
Ursin, Francois " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards, Co. E
Victor, Arthur Joseph " 1st Regt. La. Native Guards
If the question is still about blacks "fighting" for the Confederacy, then those gentlemen who are listed as applying for pensions don't really prove a point. I see where they served with the Confederate army, but did they do any shooting at yankees?
Pension applications (whether the applicant is black or white) rarely have any information about battles.
It's usually just basic info- name, rank, company, regiment, length of service, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wm42
Isn't the question still about blacks fighting for the Confederacy? ...I don't understand what the argument is about at this point.
Terry
Lately it's been about whether there were any "serving" "officially" "as" "soldiers."
I wouldn't know, never having seen a comparison of the entire regimental roll. However, here is a list of a single company from the secessionist militia regiment and where the men eventually served in the Federal forces. Looks like "many" to me.
* - Name appears on the muster roll of Butler's 1st Regiment of Native Guards, U.S.A.
# - Name appears on the list of volunteers for Banks's "Folorn Hope" at Port Hudson.
* - Name appears on the muster roll of Butler's 1st Regiment of Native Guards, U.S.A.
# - Name appears on the list of volunteers for Banks's "Folorn Hope" at Port Hudson.
If you look at the list I posted from the Order Company of the secessionist LA militia regiment, you will notice that many of the men in it ended up in Union regiments other than Butler's 1st Regiment of Native Guards, U.S.A. Some of them, for example, appeared in the 2nd LA Native Guards organized by Butler, or the 3rd. Some joined the Union 6th LA. One, Jules Morphy, joined the 91st USCT.
Note also that as the members of the unit discovered they were only being used as a PR move by the Confederacy (never actually called up, one company having only 10 muskets for training, problems with equipment, used for grand reviews but nothing else, turned down for guarding Union POWs from Bull Run, etc.) they had a large amount of absenteeism at training sessions. Then the LA militia law was changed to include only free white men and this regiment was disbanded February 15, 1862. In late March (the 24th?), with the Yankees on the doorstep, the governor suddenly tried to activate them again (local Confederate command was against it), but it seems only something like 300 men showed up, they never fired a shot, and they surrendered to Farragut with the city of New Orleans.
Is there some particular reason we should be counting only the ones who joined the 1st Native Guards? Or does it just help your case to leave the rest out?
If you look at the list I posted from the Order Company of the secessionist LA militia regiment, you will notice that many of the men in it ended up in Union regiments other than Butler's 1st Regiment of Native Guards, U.S.A. Some of them, for example, appeared in the 2nd LA Native Guards organized by Butler, or the 3rd. Some joined the Union 6th LA. One, Jules Morphy, joined the 91st USCT.
....
Is there some particular reason we should be counting only the ones who joined the 1st Native Guards? Or does it just help your case to leave the rest out?
Regards,
Tim
This is my own study I did several months ago-
A sampling of the CSA Native Guard ("A" thru "C")
Of 216 names only 49 (or 22%) later appear on the rolls of the Federal army.
All of the 49 were either in the 73rd USCT (formerly 1st La. Native Guard, USA) or 74th USCT (formerly 2nd La. Native Guard, USA).
There were none in the 75th, 76th, or 77th.
Later I found 5 or 6 more matching names in other regiments (91st USCT, etc) which would bring the percentage up to about 25%. Still far from the propaganda story of the entire regiment switching sides-
"OUR COLORED TROOPS IN LOUISIANA....
It is now some five months since General Butler's attention was called, by certain free colored men in New Orleans, to the fact that they held commissions from Governor Moore, of Louisiana, as duly enrolled officers of the Confederate army, and requesting to transfer their services to the United States. General Butler, with that keen perception for which he is so remarkable, at once saw the bearings of this important matter, granted the request of his applicants, and issued his order mustering the regiment into our service...."
Harper's Weekly, 28 Feb 1863.
~~~
The Original Louisiana Native Guard, CSA
73rd = 73rd USCT
74th = 74th USCT
Abelard, Joseph Sergeant
Achille, Joseph Private
Adam, Ariste Private
Adam, Manuel Private
Adam, Emile Private
Adolphe, Joseph Private
Albrier, Jean
Albrier, Patrisse Alcide, Joseph Private (73rd, 74th)
Alcine, Louis Private
Alexis, Joseph Private
Allian, Jean Private
Allougas, Gustave Private
Alpuente, Florian Private
Alagas, Jerome Private
Alvez, Louis
Amant, J. Private
Amedae, Archille Private
Andre, Theodore Private
Angelain, G. Private
Angelain, L. Private
Anson, Faustin Private
Antoine, Arthur Corporal
Antoine, Eugene Private
Antoine, Joseph Private Aquillard, Belcourt Corporal (73rd, 74th)
Armand, Adolphe Private
Armand, J.Private Armand, Joseph (73rd, 74th)
Armand, Theo Private
Armant, Dieydonne Private
Armstrong, Joseph Private
Arnot, St. Leger Private
Arril, Prosper Private
Ascensio,Joseph Private Athenor, Ernest Private (73rd)
Aubert, Charles Sergeant
Auguste, Joseph Private
Auguste, Mirtile Private
Auguste, Pierre Private Auguste, T. Private (73rd, 74th) Augustin, Adolphe (73rd, 74th)
Augustin, Felix Private
Augustin, James Corporal
Augustin, Omar Sergeant Major
Auld, J. Private
Aurillion, O. Sergeant
Avril, Estave
Avril, Gabriel
Avril, Ogerauld
Avril, P. Private Bacchus, N.J. Captain (73rd)
Badie, Oscar Private
Balon, Benjamin Private
Balthazar, Paul Private
Bandui, S. Private
Barjon, Dutreuil Private Barte, James (73rd "Barts")
Barte, Oscar
Barthe, A. Private
Barthe, John 1st Lieutenant
Basilique, Alfred Private
Bazanae, Alphonse Private
Bazelique, Alphonse Private
Beaulier, J.B. Corporal
Beauver, Joseph Private Bebelle, Joseph Private (73rd) Bechez, Victor Private (73rd "Beche") Bedout, G. Corporal (73rd, 74th "Gustave")
Belsire, Francois Private
Belaire, Louis Private
Belizaire, Engola Sergeant Bell, J. Private (73rd "John")
Belot. A. Private
Belot, O. Private
Belot, Octave Private
Belot, V. Private
Benjamin, A. Private Benjamine, Antoine Private (73rd "Benjamin")
Benot, Joseph Private
Bercier, Manuel
Bercy, Edouard
Bernard, Eugene Bernard, J.A. Private (74th "John")
Bernard, Joseph Private Bernard, Jules Private (73rd) Bernard, Louis Private (73rd)
Bernard, W. Private Berguier, H. Private (74th "Henry") Bertonneau, Arnold 1st Lieutenant (74th)
Bertrand, Louis Private
Bertrand, Osevis Private
Bertrand, Pierre
Bevrotte, Henry Private
Bezou, Henry Major
Bibi, John Private
Bienvenn, E.M. Private
Bijou, A. Private Bijou, J. Private (73rd)
Bijou P. Private
Bijoux, B. Manuel Private Bijoux, Leandre Private (73rd)
Birot, J. Private
Blanche, Ernest Sergeant
Bleach, Ernest Private Blanc, Henri Private (73rd)
Blancan, Bienaime’
Blanchard, Nichols Sergeant
Blanchard, Orther Private
Blasco, Amedee’ Private
Blondin, Charles
Bodreaux, Francois Private
Boquille, Ludgere Captain
Boquille, Orther Private
Boquille, Raoul Sergeant Major
Boisdore, Francois Private
Boissiere, J. Private
Bonjeon, J.J. Private
Bonne', L. Sergeant
Bono, Vincent Private
Bonseigneur, Virgil Captain Boone, Valsin 1st Lieutenant (73rd "Bonne") Boree, Louis Private (73rd "Borie")
Bosque, A. Private Bosque, Theophile Private (74th "Bosquie")
Botler, Robert Private Bourgeau, Alfred Sergeant (73rd "Bourgear")
Bourjeau, C. Boustillos, Antoin Private (73rd "Antoine Boustille")
Boutin, A. Private Boutte, E. Private (73rd "Elise"/74th "Elyse") Boutte, L. Private (73rd,74th "Lucien" or "Louis") Boutte, Valsin Private (73rd, 74th "Valcour")
Bovira, Jean Private
Brael, H. Private
Brana, Lucien Sergeant
Brard, Alfred Private
Bresson, W. Private
Brishom, W. Sergeant Brion, Bazile Sergeant Major (73rd "Bazil") Bro, Pierre Private (73rd "Broux") Broca, Jules Private (73rd "Juleo Brocan")
Broyerd, Henry Corporal Butler, C. Private (73rd "Charles")
Cabal, A. 1st Lieutenant
Cadichon, Joseph Private
Caillole, Jean Private Cailloux, Andre 1st Lieutenant (73rd "Andrew Caillout")
Caliste, Joseph Private
Camille, John Private
Camps, J. Jr Private
Camps, Manuel Private Candi, Joseph (73rd "Candif") Candiff, Daniel Private (73rd "Canduff")
Canelle, Pierre Sergeant
Canelle, Pierre Jr. Private
Canonge, Zephire 1st Lieutenant
Capla, R.V. Corporal
Carlon, L.J. Private
Carlon, W. Private
Carmouche, Louis Carrere, Etienne Private (73rd "Etemne") Carrere, Joseph Private (73rd)
Carrere, Nereston Private Carrien, A. Private (73rd "Augustine Carrier")
Cassnave, G. Private
Casimir, Lucien Private
Cassenave, R.C. Private
Cassino, Antoine
Casting, Murville 2nd Lieutenant
Castille, Raymond
Caston, Arthur
Catey, Francois Private
Castane, Joseph Private
Ceressolle, Octave Private
Charbonnet, D.L. Private
Charland, Antone Private Charles, Joseph Private (73rd) Charles, Pierre Private (73rd)
Charmelle, Numa Private
Chateau, Ulysse Private
Chaumette, Earnest Private
Chauivin, T. Private
Chauivin, J. Private
Chavanne, Francis Private
Chenette, G.J. 1st Sergeant
Chenot, Louis Private
Cheron, John Private
Chesse, A.L. Private
Chesse, G. Private Cheval, Angelin Corporal (73rd)
Cheval, Ludger Private
Chevalier, Alexandre Private Chevalier, Armand Private (74th)
Chelalier, Biennemee
Chevalier, Jules Private
Cheven, A. Private
Chezan, Sidney Private
Christophe, Firmint Private Clavic, O.J.B. Private (73rd "O.J.B. Clavier")
Clement, Louis Private Clement, Pierre Private (73rd) Clement, Pierre Private (74th)
Coffy, H. Sergeant Coiron, Stanislas Private (73rd)
Colas, Raphael Private Compagnon, J.P. Private (73rd)
Constant, G.G. Private
Copel, Eugene Private
Cordier, Pierre Private
Coulon, Jean Private
Coulon, Jules Private
Coulon, Prosper
Coucelle, Charles Private Craig, J. Private (74th "Joseph")
Crocker, D. Private
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