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  #11  
Old 02-16-2006, 12:05 PM
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The SCV would be better off preserving the honors earned by Confederate Soldiers, white and black, and leaving the hyperbole and myth-preservation to Lost Causers and war apologists.

The "fact" sheet, added to an "educational text" posted elsewhere in this forum are quickly diminishing my respect for a group that originally held my hearty approval and esteem.
Ole
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  #12  
Old 02-16-2006, 12:50 PM
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Default The Black Solder

If electing to propagate the story of the Confederate solder is the true since and reason for the SCV as it was when founded, then I agree with them and you. If their sole reason for existence since the failed coop of last year is to foster another agenda “Bring back the Confederacy” I again agree with you. I want no part of the Confederacy or groups wishing its re-birth.

But what I have tried to do is tell the untold story of the Black solder of the Civil War. From the first attempt in Arkansas and New Orleans to the birth of the 54th and start of the Buffalo Solder. Be he Confederate or be he Union. His story diserves to be told. We have failed to do so in the past because it is unbelievable to some or publicly incorrect to others.

Northerners, at least the ones I know here in New York, sometimes tend to say that the north welcomed runaways and freedmen as equals. Well you'all know that is not true. If this was, why did the north, just as the south in post war years have white’s only bathroom’s restaurants and other unjust rules against a person simply because he was black. We did the same to the Japanese in WWII. Why not the Germans in America? Because there were too many of them as opposed to the Japanese.

No, I will go on telling the story of the black American solder whether he be Confederate, whether he be Union.

I have a grandson who is ½ black and ½ white. He is 9 years old. Last night funny enough, I was talking to him about Fredrick Douglas. He did not know who he was. He told me that his teacher only talked about Martin Luther King. Amazing, and its Black History Month. He did not know what the 13th amendment was or who Robert Smalls or Elizabeth Freedmen was either. Or for that fact, George Washington Carver. WHY?

I guess this is my point. My son-in-law who passed away several years ago, understood why I do what I do and appreciated the telling of the black. That is the whole story, north and south, slave and non-slave.

Thats why I want and appreciate everyones dicussion and thoughts on this matter. It's through this manner of open fourms that we learn from each other.

But the truth be told, The Civil War will continue to be faught on tables like this. It's very hard to place ourself in that time and think as they did. We only have this version of history to rely on and as we all know history is writen by the victor.
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Last edited by Buffalo-Guard; 02-16-2006 at 01:16 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-16-2006, 01:46 PM
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The Siege of Vicksburg, June 1863

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=979
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  #14  
Old 02-16-2006, 03:22 PM
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Buff-
I started a similar thread a few weeks ago. There were a few negative comments, but the fact that black Confederates DID exist was aknowledged. The numbers that recieved Confederate pensions were larger than most people realized. Black history has been surpressed, in the north as well as in the south. On actual muster rolls, in many cases, a person of color was signed up as "private", but later the "private" was lined through and "teamster" or "servant" written above it. I credited this to the fact that the servant or teamster would recieve less pension than the private. As a Mississippi Son I fully agree with your stand. The purpose of the SCV is not to pacify the SUV, nor take from that organization, or any other pro union organization. When a person lowrates the SCV, I wonder how many hours the person has logged working in Union Veterans cemeteries.
Sitting in many SCV meetings, I have never heard anyone advocating another rebellion or succession. On the other hand, if my community were invaded again, whether by Northern troops, Chineese, Cubans or whoever, there will be less of them when they leave. I am accustomed to being expendable.
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  #15  
Old 02-16-2006, 09:23 PM
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Twelve Reasons We Don’t Believe in Black Confederates

Many people reject the evidence that thousands of the South's 3,880,000 blacks, both free men and slaves, labored and fought, willingly, for the Southern Confederacy.

Why do they not believe, given the many accounts in the Official Records, contemporary newspaper reports, photographs, pension application records, and recollections of black Southerners? Here are 11 explanations.

1. It may force us to change what we believe. Changing our beliefs is troublesome and effortful. Most of us have always believed that both the Confederate and Union armies were all white, just like they are shown in the 1994 film Gettysburg.

2. It is not what most others believe. The leading guideline for adult behavior in questionable moral areas, according to the classic work of psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg is “What would people think?” (i.e., “what are other people doing”). We base our behavior—and ideas—on what others are doing, so that we appear “normal.” Since few others believe in black Confederates, we will not either, in order to fit in with the majority.

3. It might contradict a prejudice. Are we ready to accept that a black man could be every bit as brave, and every bit as dedicated, as a white man in combat? Rejecting the claim that blacks fought is consistent with a prejudice against blacks. Perhaps those who reject out of hand the idea of black Confederates are expressing their own prejudice against blacks.

4. It complicates our simple stereotype of blacks vs. whites as separate groups. But in truth, are these groups more alike than different? Maybe seeing them as different groups allows us to perceive differences that are not really there? A more complex perception is of one larger group with many diverse individuals, not of two groups of similar individuals. The simpler perception that fits a black versus white stereotype is consistent with the view that there were no black Confederates.

5. How do we now teach Civil War history in 10 minutes? How do we summarize the reasons for the war in a few sentences, if in fact thousands of black Southerners fired in anger at the Northern troops coming "to free them"? At least one Northern soldier put his frustration at that incident into the Official Record of the War of the Rebellion: "Here I had come South and was fighting to free this man," the disgusted U.S. major wrote in his diary; "If I had made one false move on my horse, he would have shot my head off" (Barrow et al., 2001, p. 43).

6. It complicates the simple portrayal of the North as Good, driving out the “Wicked Southern Slave master.” How can Northern soldiers serve in the role as Angels of Mercy, if black Confederates shot at them?

7. It weakens support for the claim that the War was About Slavery

We like simplicity. "The War was About Slavery" is simple, as simple as a Pepsi commercial. For a society raised on Pepsi commercials, the One Factor Theory (slavery) has enormous appeal. If many blacks chose to fight for the South, how could the War have been exclusively concerned with slavery? Maybe there were other issues. Now we might have to examine economic factors (No—not that!).

We also have to consider why individual black Southerners fought. Some were slave owners themselves, and/or occupied respected positions in their communities as Free Men of Color (especially Louisiana and Virginia) or Free Women of Color (as in Charleston, with its 6000 free blacks, mostly women).

Suggesting the slavery was not the only factor brings up a number of annoying truths about slavery, like these:


Lincoln didn't emancipate the slaves until about half way through the war;

Lincoln fired two generals who did free slaves in 1861 and 1862;

Lincoln didn't emancipate any slaves under his actual control; (imagine the President today stating that the minimum wage is henceforth and forever going to be $25 an hour-- in Mexico and Canada).

The under ground railroad didn't stop at the Mason/Dixon line. It reached all the way to Canada because such states as Illinois (the land of Lincoln) had laws that a black could be whipped if found within the state for more than three days.

There were 5 slave states among the Northern states;

Slavery was legal in these Northern states after the "emancipation" of slaves that were not under Northern control;

Lincoln's idea of how to deal with emancipated slaves was to send them to Africa, and a new African country was created for this purpose;

Slavery was legal in the north even after the fall of the Confederacy.

The flag that flew over slave ships was the United States' Stars and Stripes, never a Confederate flag.

Do we want to bring up these facts about slavery?: That Africans were captured by other Africans to be sold into slavery? That Africans sold other Africans to Yankee, not to Southern, slave dealers, for transport in Yankee slave ships? That blacks as well as whites owned slaves?

Do we want to recognize that slavery had never been safer than in 1860: Lincoln personally supported a new constitutional amendment protecting slavery forever, which he signed, and Illinois had already ratified it when war broke out.

"The institution of slavery had never been more secure for the slave owners, with the Supreme Court in their back pocket, with the Constitution itself expressly protecting slavery, and mandating the return of fugitive slaves everywhere-- a mandate Lincoln said he would enforce; with Lincoln also declaring he had no right to interfere with slavery and no personal inclination to do so; with Lincoln personally supporting a new constitutional amendment protecting slavery forever . . . There is nothing the South could have asked for, for the protection of slavery, that wouldn't have been gladly provided, just as long as the South remained in the Union" (Adams, 2000).

We don’t believe in black Confederates because when we question that the war was "about slavery," we eventually get around to the question: “What Was The War About?” and “Why were 360,000 Northern boys and men killed?”

Slavery had died out everywhere in the world except Brazil, and was on its way out in the Southern American States. Slavery had ended almost everywhere in the world without war. Was the death of 600,000 Americans worth ending slavery 10 or 15 years sooner?—or than ending it as it had been ended peacefully everywhere else in the world, by compensated emancipation?

8. Many whites disbelieve that there were black Confederates because of "White Guilt." Many white Americans feel undeserving of their wealth. Certainly, many are undeserving. Some give a small part of their wealth to the poor, and this seems to make them feel better. Others hire the poor to work for them—and then bask in their role as benefactors. Massachusetts writer—and abolitionist-- Henry Thoreau saw through this chimera 20 years before the War. He wrote concerning charity towards the poor at the end of the chapter “Economy,” in his masterpiece Walden. Regarding his wealthy friends who “helped” the poor, by paying them to work in their kitchens, Thoreau wrote: "Let them work in their own kitchens."

One target for giving wealth has traditionally been black causes. A major recipient has been the NAACP, which endorses a movement to shift massive wealth to former slaves. Establishing that some of these slaves supported the Southern States, and that some blacks today, descendants of those slaves, still support the ideals of the Confederacy (and there were other ideals besides slavery), is inconsistent with the fundamental causes of White Guilt.

9. It is inconsistent with the culture of Victimhood. If blacks chose to fight for the South, how can blacks be passive, helpless, unwilling victims? One black liberal dismissed evidence that blacks fought for the Southern Confederacy by referencing the "abused wife syndrome": An accusation that these poor helpless blacks were victims and unable to act with volition and control over their environment. But what do we say of the blacks captured by Yankees who escaped and returned to their units?— Or of the more than 40 blacks attending the 1890 UCV Reunion, pictured in another essay? One has to believe an “abused wife syndrome” that is powerful indeed, to explain the activities of these black Confederates.

10. It brings up the annoying question: Why did blacks fight? If the reasons blacks fought for the South include the same reasons whites fought for the South, or any of the same reasons that anyone fights for any cause in any war, then we have to look at those fighting black Confederates as deliberative, volitional, reasoning, diverse, individuals, just like the whites we talk about, when we talk about why whites fought for the South. This topic is dealt with as a separate essay.

11. It brings up another annoying question: Why did anyone fight for the North? No one really knows why men go to war to fight. Once they get there, they don't fight for their flag, or their country, or God. They fight for their comrades. Some of the issues involved in the discussion of why men fight are presented in another essay in this series, “Why Did Blacks Fight for the Confederate States of America.”

The literature documenting why men fight is rich: Some of the writers who have tried to explain why men fight include Erich Maria Remarque, Hans Helmut Kirst, Heinrich Böll; William Broyles, and McPherson; Ambrose, etc. Southerners fought because the North invaded the South.

But why did Northerners fight? We do not want to ask that question, and discussing why blacks fought for the South leads us ultimately to the question: Why did anyone fight for the North?

What would you say to a boy from Iowa, bleeding to death in front of a wall near Fredericksburg in December 1862 (note the date: Before the “Emancipation”)-- "Your life was lost to help force Arkansas back into a Union she does not wish to be part of"? Or how about: “You gave your life to help force Florida back into a Union that she does not wish to be part of”?

Why did anyone fight for the North? We know why 1 of 5 of them fought-- they were literally off the boat from Ireland or Germany. These immigrants arrived at Ellis Island, and stepped from their ship into a New York Infantry Regiment. They fought in order to get citizenship. But what about the other 4 of 5 Northerners who served in the Union forces? It is indeed a difficult question to answer.

12. We Want to Believe the War Was About Slavery

Accepting that thousands of blacks fought for the Confederate States of America forces us to rethink the common assumption that the War was “about slavery.” Surely no one would dismiss slavery as an important factor. But to most modern Americans, slavery was the factor, perhaps the only factor. Again, to the extent that we believe that thousands of black Confederates fought for their country, our belief in slavery as the cause of the War is threatened. This need for cognitive balance is examined at length in another essay. To summarize that essay: We ask, “what balances the deaths of 600,000 Americans during the years 1861 to 1865?” We need some reason to balance that great tragedy. What is it?

Getting even for Fort Sumter? No. Settling States Rights issues? No-- That answer never seems to explain why so many Americans died. Settling Tariff issues? No-- Same shortcoming, plus, few modern Americans can stay awake during any discussion of tariff issues. How about, to Preserve our Great Experiment in Democracy! No-- it is hard to sell this idea to modern Americans as the reason that more than half a million Americans died. The argument typically holds that had the Confederacy established itself, then there would have been more secessions, until ultimately we would have had a separate country, or two, in everyone’s back yard.

Finally, the End of slavery: Yes: Now there’s a reason we can celebrate: Slavery is bad; The South had slavery; therefore the South was bad and the Good North fought against the South, and slavery ended. Any child can grasp this argument; try explaining tariff issues to that person. Try explaining States Rights to that person—try explaining the issue of free trade and Northern versus Southern import and export economies—try explaining the diverging cultural bases of the North and the South. You will get a big yawn. Consider Ken Burns’s popular and acclaimed The Civil War—the most popular PBS series in history. To his great credit, Mr. Burns shows the appalling tragedy of 600,000 thousand dead Americans. And running throughout this 11 hour drama is the theme that ending slavery was the reason for these deaths. At one point a black woman historian makes that point explicit: The Union lifted the War to a higher plane, she explains. Clearly, Burns has accepted the idea that the War was “over slavery”—if only to give some sense to the TV audience who might wonder why America fought itself, and to do it in the TV schedule he had to work with.

Ultimately we believe the War was about the Ending of Slavery because that is the only cause that provides the cognitive balance we need.

The great evil of more than 600,000 deaths “balances” in our minds against the great evil of slavery.

Many of us will never believe that Lee Oswald acted alone in killing President John Kennedy (no “balance”)—many of us will believe that the U.S. entering World War I was a great victory—we will not believe that 160,000 more lives were wasted, and that our tipping the balance against Germany and Austria in 1918 lead directly to Hitler, and to WWII with another 100,000,000 dead, and to 40 years of Cold War. “Ending Slavery” provides that cognitive balance for the War of 1861-- Never mind that slavery ended everywhere else in the world without bloodshed. Never mind that other factors explain that the North and South became different countries long before 1860. Slavery provides that simple cognitive explanation.

Any evidence that blacks fought for the South is inconsistent with the notion that the War was only about slavery.

References

Adams, Charles. (2000). When in the Course of Human Events: Arguing the Case for Southern Secession. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.

Barrow, C. K., Segars, J. H., & R.B. Rosenburg, R.B. (Eds.) (2001). Black Confederates, Pelican Publishing Company, Gretna.

I don't know the author's name. This article came from this site: http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/colour.html
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  #16  
Old 02-17-2006, 08:27 AM
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Default Black Confederate

Very good post. With all of the postings I have done, you sumed it up. A person can argue until the cows come home but unless one is willing to look at a subject such as the Black Confederate Solder with an open mind, they will never understand.

Some web sites that I posted on another topic reference this;


http://homepages.dsu.edu/jankej/civilwar/colored.htm

http://www2.netdoor.com/~jgh/index.html

http://www.bjmjr.com/civwar/usct.htm

http://www.slavenorth.com/denial.htm

http://www.redstone.army.mil/history...ate/chron2.htm
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2006, 09:22 AM
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Just as a note to why I so adamantly dispute most of the accounts f the Black CS Soldier. When I was living in SC I visited a plave called Dingles Mill the site of a "ferocius battle where thousands died" according to a local SCV man and there were hundreds of Black Confederates there. I was intrigued and quite impressed by the story I was told and came to firmly believe there were 30,000 or more Black Confederate soldiers... I have since revised my opinion downward dramaticly.

I repeated the story, often... then I met a women by the name of Connie Boone who forced me to question the incident. I did my own research and discovered several things: 1. the battle was so insignificant that it isn't listed in any listing of CW battles. 2. THe Black troops there in most evidence were USCT men not CS. 3. due to a shortage of horses local slaves had been impressed to pull the CS guns and may or may not have manned them. 4. Almost everything I had been told about the incident was pure fabrication from the numbers involved to the tactics used.

Upon further research I discovered that what I was told about this particular incident was NOT an unusual distortion. For that alone I owe Connie a great apology which can never be given.

I have run sources to ground that claim hundreds of Black Confederates in arms to find one or sometimes 2 zeros added to the orignal number. Creative editing done w/ a very sick agenda.

My process for coming to the number of 1300 actual fighting Black CS men is simple. I have run to ground approx 130 verifiable incidents involving Black Soldiers fighting w/ the CS (40 approx w/ Forrest) and that is all. I figured that w/ Jim Crow and creative bookkeeping I was likely missing a goodly number in short I suspect I only found 10%. Most of these Black men served in western Regiments. Arkansas, Texas, Tennessee etc.

I have NEVER read a first person account from the Union perspective of facing Black CS troops in battle, or of capturing them or of burying them. Many of the letters I have read were written by abolishionists and perhaps 75-80% were written by western troops some of who were extremely racist men that would have complained or commented about seeing Black CS soldiers. Having now read Union letters & diaries to the tune of better than 2000 different authors I think I stand on fairly firm ground.

I see the modern habit of finding a single account or a dozen of Black men fighting for the CS and then I see the numbers carried all out of proportion. Why? Some feel the South must be vindicated and will willingly lie, distort & attempt to rewrite history to do so. Others feel that the US can do no good and "proof" that black CSers fought against this country only furthers that belief.

Thankfully there are a few, and I do mean a few, who attempt to use actual research to come to their own conclusion... unfortunately they are a minority.
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  #18  
Old 02-17-2006, 10:22 AM
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Default Black Confederate

Many people distort the facts and inflate for their own agenda. The truth be told, no one knows the numbers of black Confederates. But for claims of 1000’s, I don’t know. I have seen no records reflecting numbers. They would be small to say the least. That being said, if only one fought, then his story should be told.

The black Confederate solder fought for reasons only he knew. Was he fighting for the same as the white fighting for states rights as some claim? Perhaps he felt it was a win win situation. If the south won he louses nothing, if the north wins, he wins again. The problem is that I have found nothing stating that their service will provide them their release from bondage. I am sure that some Confederate Cabinet members would have pushed for that because of his service.

In any event other than the small number of blacks who owned slaves, no black would have fought for the continuance of slavery but if there was the promise of freedom, well who knows.

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  #19  
Old 02-17-2006, 09:11 PM
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[quote=olerebel]Buff-
On actual muster rolls, in many cases, a person of color was signed up as "private", but later the "private" was lined through and "teamster" or "servant" written above it. I credited this to the fact that the servant or teamster would recieve less pension than the private. /QUOTE]
You also have to "credit' the cross off to include the fact, that, when slaves, or even 'inducted' free blacks in the area, were used for servants, laborers, or even teamsters, they had to be documented, on paper, so that pay claims to the slave owner could be collected.
There was No standard form for use by the Confederate Military for 'use of slaves' so, in many cases, the standard form used for recording Privates, was used. Hence, crossing out Private and writing in the slaves name and 'use' by the local commander. Much of the time they were 'recruited' to help build fortifications.
Relating to the other thread trying to prove black troops at Fort Blakeley, some slaves might have been used to help build the fortifications there, but the majority in the Mobile region had been used to help build the extensive fortifications around the city of Mobile. Although there were letters asking for more troops, blacks and shovels, none were forthcoming at that stage of the game. Not enough of any of them, and besides, there were No Black Confederates in that area to begin with.
Asking for, or commenting about, does not prove the existence of black troops in a field of action. The only 'sanctioned' and actually enlisted Black troops had been in Richmond, and were never shipped anywhere. They Never fired a shot, against the Union in the war. These are probably the troops that were being requested for Ft. Blakeley.
Just a few thoughts,
Chuck in IL.
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  #20  
Old 02-17-2006, 11:35 PM
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The CSA didn't sanction using blacks as soldiers, but some of the officers in the field had no such reservations. Many of those black soldiers may not have been official with the CSA government, but they deserve the credit due them for their roles as soldiers in the Confederate army.

I think Frederick Douglass' comment about black Confederate soldiers is strong evidence to this fact, as well as that of Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the U.S. Sanitary Commission.

Regards,
Rose
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