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I see little has changed since I visited here last. Those who wish to deny the reality of Black Confederates are still at it, in the face of irrefutable evidence that black men and women did serve the Southeren cause and did so willingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanst
Ummm I beliave sir you need to read the thread; no one denies that there were Black CS soldier under arms... the dispute is the inflated numbers of the Lost Cause....
....I do not believe anyone has claimed no Black Men willingly served the CS; the question has been the numbers. The Lost Cause would have us believe there were hundreds of thousands....
Who on this board has claimed "hundreds of thousands?"
Who on this board has claimed "hundreds of thousands?"
If you cannot name anyone...
...then you're just posting phoney arguments.
Her name was Thea... she also questioned how many USCT men were really just servants.
MOONSHINE
The CS govt had no interest in arming black men until desperate times called for measures of desperation... it would have been against their better interest. An armed slave is a slave only as long as he wants to be.
Larry; has made a valid point, those who served deserve respect regardless of their skin color. This is very true and well said. I wish I believed that either Rebprof or Battalion believed that as well. Instead all I see is a rather shallow attempt to diminsh the role of the USCT.
Battalion I believe that if the Lost Cause, and its advocates, thought they could get away w/ claiming the USCT was actually fighting for the CS... they would. The Lost Cause, and its advocates, would have us believe that slaves were happy and content as slaves and were even willing to fight to keep that status. In short in the CS black people knew their place. The USCT knew which side of the rifle they needed to be on to attain freedom and as a majority were freed slaves...
Incidently Battalion; enjoy the moonshine though watch the quality control... some of that stuff can really throw you for a loop.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Guys, I'm also convinced after studying the Union and Confederate armies in the Tennessee campaign of 1864 for several moons now, that there was a prevailing attitude against blacks in both armies. Not much difference as to which 'side' was the worst. The whole country was in pretty much the same mindset relative to African Americans, American Indians and in some cases Hessians who were hired for service. We should perhaps all be ashamed and, as you all know, that has been discussed for at least 150 years at this point. Our history is not always a thing of beauty, but it's ours.
Guys, I'm also convinced after studying the Union and Confederate armies in the Tennessee campaign of 1864 for several moons now, that there was a prevailing attitude against blacks in both armies. Not much difference as to which 'side' was the worst. The whole country was in pretty much the same mindset relative to African Americans, American Indians and in some cases Hessians who were hired for service. We should perhaps all be ashamed and, as you all know, that has been discussed for at least 150 years at this point. Our history is not always a thing of beauty, but it's ours.
Amen... we are a far cry from perfect but I do hope and pray that every generation gets a little better. After teaching 150 odd 6th graders today about the Civil War I am greatly heartened by their interest and their curiosity about a pivitol moment in our history.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Bravo to you Larry & Johan. The attitude of both North & South towards the black man was not complimentary. The South accepted them so long as they were underlings. Many Northeners thought even less of them and if they were freed, wanted them off this continent.
While the lost cause crowd of the late 1880s to the 1920s (when they began dying off) would have us believe that the slaves were happy and content, that so many of them fled and sought refuge with the Union troops and over 180k served as soldiers showed where many objected to their slave status. Sherman's army had to keep them in the rear lest they slowed their march to Georgia or the Carolinas down.
Still, it should be remembered that history has few absolutes and there were many slaves and freeman who served. Many fortifications were built by them. Many of the factories ran with their labor. The agriculture production of the south relied on them too. Some black Confederates even fought. Profession E. Jordan's book is the best book on the subject and I hope one day he does an equivalent book on the other states in rebellion.
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While the lost cause crowd of the late 1880s to the 1920s (when they began dying off) would have us believe that the slaves were happy and content, that so many of them fled and sought refuge with the Union troops and over 180k served as soldiers showed where many objected to their slave status. Sherman's army had to keep them in the rear lest they slowed their march to Georgia or the Carolinas down..
Slaves left the plantations whenever a Union army got into reach, from 1861 to 1865. In January 1865, Sherman, with Stanton's approval, confiscated a large strip of GA-Carolina coast to settle some 40-50,000 escaped slaves/freedmen.
The 180,000 number for USCT includes white officers, etc. Appears to be about 171,000 black soldiers. However, that does not count blacks serving with the fleet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary
Still, it should be remembered that history has few absolutes and there were many slaves and freeman who served. Many fortifications were built by them. Many of the factories ran with their labor. The agriculture production of the south relied on them too. Some black Confederates even fought. Profession E. Jordan's book is the best book on the subject and I hope one day he does an equivalent book on the other states in rebellion.
No one denies that slaves served as labor for the South, and that labor included building fortifications, agriculture and a number of other functions. To say they "served" seems to imply they had a choice or a voice in the matter when they did not. If the government conscripted slave labor, it was the master who was paid, not the slave -- and the master who was paid if they died while working.
It was illegal for blacks to be soldiers in the Confederacy, whether they were slave or free; free blacks were specifically exempted from the conscription laws as well, which is how so many ended up as teamsters and such for the armies. This did not change until 1865, and then only because a desperate R. E. Lee threw his weight behind it.
About 2 companies of "black Confederates" were mustered. They were observed in uniform, marching through Richmond, in March. They accompanied Lee's army as a supply train guard during the retreat to Appomattox, and actually formed for battle at one point. That is the entire story of "black Confederate" units.
Many others, of course, accompanied their masters to war. Some were trusted with arms, and one Confederate cavalry commander definitely armed his black teamsters during a retreat from Gettysburg with the train of wounded. You can find isolated incidents to report, and a company of mulattos in Mobile that the dept. commander needed and wanted but could not get approved. There are a few with a guerilla unit in Florida, and seemingly some in Louisiana, maybe 300 who surrendered when New Orleans fell and then largely joined the Union.
When Lee formed units of black slaves for sapper duty, he was very careful to make sure they were NOT confused with soldiers. All the terminology was changed, they worked in "gangs" under white "foremen" and "supervisors" instead of officers -- but the "foremen" and "supervisors" were temporarily detached from military service to be "civilians" and would be recalled to the Army as soon as they failed to satisfy. Obviously an early incident of "don't ask - don't tell" or "wink, wink - nod, nod", but it was all done because a black *could not be* a soldier to the Confederacy.
Also, in all this debate about whether blacks who dug fortifications or drove wagons for the Confederacy were soldiers, it is worth noting that civilian blacks who dug fortifications or drove wagons for the Union were not considered soldiers, nor were civilian whites who did the same tasks. Only those who joined the USCT were. Why does there seem to be an insistence that those who did for the Confederacy deserve different treatment?
"I cannot bring my mind to the conviction that arming our slaves will add to our military strength, and the prospective and inevitable evils resulting from the measure make me shrink back from the step as only to be taken when on the very brink of the precipice of ruin. At first I was inclined to think we might with some advantage employ negro soldiers--but the more I think of it, the more disinclined I am to resort to what at best can only be regarded as a doubtful experiment."
Confederate Senator William Porcher Miles, in a letter to G. T. Beauregard, January 14, 1865.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Also, in all this debate about whether blacks who dug fortifications or drove wagons for the Confederacy were soldiers, it is worth noting that civilian blacks who dug fortifications or drove wagons for the Union were not considered soldiers, nor were civilian whites who did the same tasks. Only those who joined the USCT were. Why does there seem to be an insistence that those who did for the Confederacy deserve different treatment?
While it is true that blacks who served the Confederacy weren't soldiers or accepted by the Confederate Army as soldiers until the very end, some blacks did fight. I suppose it boils down to legal defintions and while they (the ones who were ordered to man the guns by their owners or allowed to pick up a rifle) weren't officially recognized as soldiers, they were soldiers per se at that moment of engaging in combat.
BTW, North & South magazine may have something in their knapsack column about it sometime soon.
There is also mentioned the raising of several Black Regiments by the CS... this is incorrect. THe 1st LA Native Guards were never accepted into the service of the CS
I have a lot of respect for the SCV, they do good service w/ the exception of the element that attempts to rewrite history.
The fact that they were not accepted is a separate issue from that of their willingness to fight for the Confederacy.
In New Orleans there were many free blacks: some of them quite wealthy, and often slaveholders themselves.
Shelby Foote said it well: "To say that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War, is as ridiculous as saying that slavery had everything to do with it."
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