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Well good for those three, what about the other 3,000,000?
Unfortunately those other 3,000,000 didn't all get to tell their story. I think I've made it clear that not all slave narratives are as rosy as those three. It was never my intention to hold up those three as proof that slavery "wasn't so bad".
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
History doesn't have absolutes. Dig hard enough, and you'll find exceptions to the common belief. So, while some slaves were content with their status as slaves, I would hazard to say that the majority of slaves joyfully awaited the arrival of Marsh Linkun's soljers and the day o' jubilee. That 180,000 wore the blue, shouldered a gun and fought against the Confederacy and numerous others flocked to Union camps doesn't need to be retold here. Equally, a lot of Confederate war production and field fortifications were built by slave labor (or slaves hired out by their masters as laborers). The South could not have lasted as long as it did without their contributions. History doesn't have absolutes and its for us to determine about where the line is drawn and in so doing, recognized that given further research, we'll have to redraw the line again and again.
Very well said. From some of the messages I read (here and elsewhere) I get the distinct impression that the general concensus is that:
1. Southerners were 100% to blame for slavery.
2. Slavery was evil, therefore Southern people were evil.
3. Blacks hated whites in the South, both then and/or now.
4. Whites hated blacks in the South, both then and/or now.
5. Slave owners all were harsh, cruel and intoxicated on the power they held over slaves.
6. Most slave owners drank mint juleps on the veranda while happily watching the slaves tend their white gold cotton crops.
7. All slave owners whipped their slaves.
8. Most slave owners didn't value the family unit of the slaves.
While some of the above has a grain or more of truth in it, much of it was highly abnormal and not the general rule. The fact is that most slave owners owned under ten slaves and more than that owned three or less. There was no veranda or mint juleps and the owner was working beside the slaves. Treatment of slaves tended to be average, neither exceptionally good or bad.
Do I think that excuses slave owners or slavery or that it vindicates the South? Not by a long shot, but the nineteenth century South should not be judged by twenty-first century standards. It was a different era and a different society. Societies progress and gain enlightenment with each generation. It doesn't mean our ancestors were evil.
This is the only point I set out to make. I apologize if I wasn't clear and I hope my stand on this issue is clear, now. Some of you may still disagree with me and that is ok, you are entitled. I just felt that I needed to clarify what I've been saying.
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
History doesn't have absolutes. Dig hard enough, and you'll find exceptions to the common belief....
....and sometimes "common belief" can be vastly wrong.
What would "common belief" say about Black Federal troops captured by that "devil incarnate"- Nathan Bedford Forrest?-
"ENGINEER OFFICE,
Mobile, Ala., February 5, 1865.
Morning report of the Forrest captured negroes, February 4, 1865."
Not only are these "Forrest captured negroes" not in any prison camp...
...they do not seem to be held under any close guard (note the number of detachments and "absent without leave" category. Shouldn't it be escaped prisoner?)
According to "common belief" these former USCT are suppose to be doing all in their power to escape to Federal lines.
"Aggregate February 3, 1865.................................... 806
Aggregate February 4, 1865.................................... 806
----
Absent without leave............................................. 18
Sick in quarters.......................................... ........... 28
Sick in hospital.......................................... ............ 96
Detached with Major Myers, chief of ordnance.............. 5
Detached with Doctor Sherard, Verona Hospital............. 9
Detached with Doctor Thompson, assistant surgeon....... 1
Detached with Doctor Newson, assistant surgeon.......... 1
Detached with Lt-Col Winder in charge picket-boats..... 47
Detached with torpedo-boat...................................... 1
Detached with steamer Piney Woods.......................... 20
Detached in commissary department.......................... 25
Detached in quartermaster's department..................... 58
Detached on steamer Le Baron, quartermaster's dept.... 12
Detached in Hospital Nott, general hospital................... 4
Detached in Hospital Ross, general hospital................. 10
Detached in Hospital Moore, general hospital............... 18
Detached in general hospital...................................... 6
Detached with Doctor Heard..................................... 12
Detached with Doctor Paine...................................... 15
Detached with Doctor Kelly......................................... 1
Detached with Captain Williams, fifer for company........... 1
Detached with Navy Department................................ 50
Total detached in other departments, sick, absent,&c....438
-----
Detached at Battery Huger...................................... 59
Detached with Leroy, Supt. at McIntosh and Gladden... 71
Detached at engineer workshops.............................. 11
Detached in wagon yard, taking care of stock.............. 2
Detached with P. McDonald, cart drivers.................... 11
Detached with Jas. Wilkins, engineer store-keeper......... 5
Detached with B. Wilson, carpenters on batteries......... 18
Detached as cooks and washers for negroes................ 41
Detached in office, commissary and yard boys............... 6
Detached with engineer tool keeper............................. 1
Present for duty on city intrenchments...................... 143
---- Total on engineer duty..................................... 368
by February 4, 1865 Forrest wasn't in position to guard much of anybody. In only about six weeks from this date Gen. James Wilson was to enter Alabama for the purpose of bringing the war in that region to a close. Forrest was void of manpower for the most part.
by February 4, 1865 Forrest wasn't in position to guard much of anybody. In only about six weeks from this date Gen. James Wilson was to enter Alabama for the purpose of bringing the war in that region to a close. Forrest was void of manpower for the most part.
I don't believe you got the meaning of my post.
The prisoners were sent to Mobile.
Forrest would not be required to guard them.
*
"Common Belief"......(both then and now) would say that-
* Forrest would have them all executed....
....if not executed...then......
* certainly placed in chains and set at hard labor.
....and......
* most certainly the former USCT would be doing all in their power to escape to Federal lines.
That Forrest would have them all executed is quite an overstatement. Forrest valued negroes for the work they could do -- at least those that survived his troopers. And we should note that Battalion stated "former USCT" while the engineering report mentions only "Forrest captured negroes." How many of them were USCT has yet to be established.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
{While some of the above has a grain or more of truth in it, much of it was highly abnormal and not the general rule.}
And I agree with you on this, and want you to know that I don't believe the 8 points you brought up, even if it appears I might not, on at least 1 of them.
{This is the only point I set out to make. I apologize if I wasn't clear and I hope my stand on this issue is clear, now. Some of you may still disagree with me and that is ok, you are entitled. I just felt that I needed to clarify what I've been saying. Rose}
Rose, Your entire post was well said.
I only wanted to point out in your examples, that age can highly color your views. And those can even be, softened or hardened, over a long period of time. This is a point brought out in Stampp's book. I think you'd enjoy reading this one.
I know you've been reading material from '
Documenting the American South: First-Person Narratives of the American South' and wonder if you've looked at 'Incidents in the life of a Slave Girl-Harriet Jacobs', or commonly known as the Jacob's Diary, or
Twelve Years a Slave-Somomon Northup. Both great books.
Chuck in IL.
By whose 'common belief' do you attempt to measure your replies?
It seems to me you are setting up a bit of a 'straw man' situation where you determine the cause and effect to a situation and then come to your already established, personal conclusion.
A few questions.
Are all these 'captured negroes' former USCT? If they are, was it not a 'common belief' that Forrest valued negroes as property and would not wish to see them damaged and therefore not execute them? After all, this is how the man made his fortune before the war, did he not?
And was it not a long established custom for most POWs, white or black, not to attempt mass escapes during the Civil War? In all my readings of prision camps of the era, I have never read where 800 or more attempted to escape at once.
As for the over 800 you list, they were broken up and detailed to many different duties and tasks and seem to be under close supervision. Would it not be a reasonable assumption that it would be very difficult to attempt an escape in such circumstances?
Common belief should not be substituted for common sense, especially if one determines his chances of escape are small to absolute zero. Staying alive until your forces march into the area and eventually free you seems a much more common sense arrangement (and a safer one) than getting yourself shot with such a small chance of sucess. Especially in February of 1865 with the war very much obvious to anyone being on its last legs.
Wild_Rose,
I saw your list of what you gathered your perceptions were of how 'general consensus' was regarding certain actions of the South and the Southern people.
I submit with all respect that you yourself are responsible for how you interpret on what you judge the 'general consensus' is among your fellow boardmembers.
I would further submit that of all the conclusions you have reached are yours and yours alone and are not truly representative of the general consensus of this board.
This is, of course, merely my own, personal opinion.
It has long been my own personal belief that the Southern people, on the whole, were not evil. As with any group of people, there are of course, exceptions. But I am of the opinion they were very much like the people in the North, East and West of the nation. They had to work, provide for their families, get by day-to-day with all of life's challenges. I do not bring charges against them, such as they were automatically evil because they had the institution of slavery ingrained into their culture and society.
Nor do I think that every slaveowner beat his slaves to death nor were there not any slaves who looked upon their masters with love and affection.
No, I think the greatest evil to inhabit the South was circumstance. If things had been just a little different, if history had jogged instead of jagged at a certain point, there is a good chance that we would have been discussing the slavery of the North and how it was instead of the South.
The Southern people were not evil or cruel, they had simply become accustomed to their circumstances and their social and cultural customs and practices, in other words, their way of life. It seems to me their greatest mistake was the one people make over and over again today. The inability to embrace change. Change is the one thing that people say they want the most but yet encourage the least. We hate change and distrust it and wish it would not trouble us, in our lives and our jobs, with our relationships with other people.
The time had come for change and the South could not bring themselves to do so in a timely manner. That is not unusual, it is just unfortunate.
Deep thoughts for a quiet, and rather snowy day.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
From the Richmond Sentinel, February 25, 1865, a published resolution from the Third Virginia Cavalry:
"...1st. That the conduct of our illustrious chief magistrate in designating "Independence" as the only basis on which we could or ought to enter into negotitations for peace with the United States, meets with our cordial approbation, believing, as we do, that it is the sentiment of our whole people.
2d. That we take up the gauntlet which the enemy has again thrown down, and hereby announce our determination to meet him on the field of battle, and submit to the arbitrament of the sword, the issue of independence or subjugation.
3d. That on the subject of recruiting our armies, it is our deliberate opinion that wisdom in legislation and firmness in the execution of laws would speedily raise a sufficient force of white troops to guarantee our independence. That we contemplate with anxiety and apprehension the proposition to enlist negro troops in our armies, seriously doubting both its expediency and practicability, dreading its effects upon our social system, and earnestly desiring to see the independence of our country established by the strong arms of her white people, who have bravely resisted her enemies thus far.
4th. That we hail the appointment of Gen. Robert E. Lee to General-in-Chief, as an augury of a vigorous prosecution and glorious termination of the war, and that we would rejoice to see all the military resources of the country placed at his disposal during this great struggle.
...Whereupon, it being proposed to vote upon each resolution separately, the preamble and first and second [and fourth] resolutions were unanimously adopted. The third resolution elicited an animated and protracted discussion, resulting in the adoption of the following substitute...:
Resolved, That we are in favor of putting the entire country on a military footing. We are in favor of putting every man in the country, between the ages of 17 and 45 in the army, and as many negroes, without changing their social status, as the Commander-in-Chief may deem necessary to redeem our sacred soil from the pollution of an insolent foe, holding our independence as paramount to all other considerations..."
Here, it seems, slaves could fight, even die for the Confederacy, but they could not obtain freedom for such service.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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