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The sons of the men who held out until Appomattox fought for the Stars & Stripes against Spain. How did this come to pass?
Why has Southern nationalism never resurfaced, despite the evidence that pride in Confederate heritage, and a belief in the justness of the Confederate cause, is still strong today?
How exactly does a modern Southerner with Confederate sympathies manage to be a patriot of the United States?
If some of these questions are naïve, blame it on the limited perspective of a foreign onlooker. But this is something which has long interested me, and I hope it will prove of some interest to others.
To get the ball rolling, I would suggest that religion played a significant part. America was dominated at the time by a particular type of Protestant Christianity which espoused the notion of a God who interfered directly in human affairs. And so the triumph of Northern arms could be seen as a Divine verdict to which the pious had to submit. It is interesting to note that some countries where nationalism survived centuries of oppression, defeat and misfortune (and I’m thinking specifically of Ireland & Poland) were devoutly Catholic. In an Irish context, Appomattox would arguably have been seen as nothing more than a temporary setback.
I think it's a great question, one I have wondered about but not studied.
I've got to run, but let me throw out two half-baked thoughts:
1. It suggests to me that the two sections had much in common -- religion, language, culture, republican-democratic tradition, etc. No festering cultural or racial differences that would breed over time (think by way of contrast of nationalities in the Balkans, part of the Austo-Hungarian empire for hundreds of years, who never accepted their domination).
2. The thoroughness of the defeat may be relevant. The North -- and in particular Sherman's march -- demonstrated that the Confederacy was not a viable entity. There was no option for Southerners to attribute the defeat to fifth columns, deceipt, trickery, sellout by politicians or the like (as Germany did after WWI). Instead, they had no choice but to accept the fact (even if many didn't say it out loud) that they were just plain beat (think by way of analogy of the relatively painless reintegration of Germany and Japan into the world community did after WWII).
This is a great question, remember these men who served, where Americans. Some had served in Mexico and the Grand Fathers service was against the Crown. The war broke the South.
The southern people would never be able to recover in a way to mount a military force against the United States. The US government turned over Military depots to Southern States prior to the start of the war, a type of concession. Which provided Arms and supplies, and this would not happen again. If a Southern State attempted to raise arms against the United States, I am quite sure immediate action would have been undertaken by the President.
The people of the Confederacy bloodied and broke just wanted to go on with their lives. Slavery was abolished, so a new type of Slavery began in the South. that contiued another 100 years, a form that took black and poor white alike, that of the Share Crop farmer.
Remember also that even Confederate Troops honored the 4th of July. There was a respect earned in battle between Northern and Southern soldiers and leadership. The Southern States soldiers where defeated, but not dishonored.
Many became leaders of the Government, the US Government holding positions in the Senate and House.
Many other Countries would have imprisoned or done worse to those leaders as traitors. They surely would have forbid their membership into their Government's representation. The United States did not, and thus the Southern people never were not represented after the surrender. If they had been?
By the time the South was rebuilt, we as a nation was well into the industrial revolution. America as a whole was becoming more concerned with world trade, along with the expansion west where major factors in the none resumption of Military action against the North.
As long as remember then the Confederacy Lives.
James
__________________ If today we must die; We die facing our enemy.
Last edited by 18TH TEXAS VOL INFANTRY; 10-27-2005 at 05:15 PM.
I think it had a lot to do with the thoroughness of their loss. I read somewhere that they had been "beaten back into submission." The South had no other options but go back (no matter how unwillingly in some cases) into the Union. A good point was made that there weren't a lot of long standing cultural and racial differences like we see in other Civil Wars, and the South really didn't have anywhere else to go.
What an extraordinarily thoughtful thread! How unfortunate I have nothing to offer but unfounded speculation.
Trivia: It wasn't just the sons of CS vets who fought in the Spanish American War. Joseph Wheeler, former CSA cavalry leader, led US Cavalry(dismounted) vs. the Spanish in Cuba.
I am reminded of an interview, quoted by Shelby Foote, given by Jefferson Davis at the end of his life. When asked about the war, he replied: "Tell them, tell them only that we were Americans."
Is it that neither Northerner or Southerner, regardless of actual history, felt shame about the war? Both sides could be proud of their efforts in the war, the courage, daring and endurance. All that heroism and idealism might be a myth, but all myths contains truth.
Excelllent post, Bill. It's going to take some long and careful plugging to cover your points.
"The sons of the men who held out until Appomattox fought for the Stars & Stripes against Spain. How did this come to pass?"
Perhaps it was simply because they enjoyed the adventure, the chance for glory and a good scrap. But that's likely to be too simplistic. Perhaps it was simply because 30+ years can change statism to nationalism. In any event, it demonstrates that the southern boys did not hate the northern near as much as imagine.
"Why has Southern nationalism never resurfaced, despite the evidence that pride in Confederate heritage, and a belief in the justness of the Confederate cause, is still strong today?"
According to a book I'm currently reading, there never really was a cohesive Southern nationalism. With northern planters, industrialists and financiers in the south, Unionist sentiment, and no clear agreement on the reason to fight a war, the point makes sense. Confederate boys fought for their state. If their state had stayed in the Union, chances are they'd have been wearing blue. They fought for too many different reasons; the Union boys mostly fought for the Union.
"To get the ball rolling, I would suggest that religion played a significant part. America was dominated at the time by a particular type of Protestant Christianity which espoused the notion of a God who interfered directly in human affairs. And so the triumph of Northern arms could be seen as a Divine verdict to which the pious had to submit. It is interesting to note that some countries where nationalism survived centuries of oppression, defeat and misfortune (and I’m thinking specifically of Ireland & Poland) were devoutly Catholic. In an Irish context, Appomattox would arguably have been seen as nothing more than a temporary setback."
According to the same book, religion played a part, but to differing degrees. By the time of the war there was a detectable difference between the faith of southerners and northerners of the same church. It seemed that northern faith, given God's intervention, leaned more toward fixing society and enjoying some of God's blessing in this life; the southerners' faith were convinced that society was as good as it was going to get so they consigned themselves to preparing for the next life. That would seem to support your view that the Confederacy accepted its defeat.
"How exactly does a modern Southerner with Confederate sympathies manage to be a patriot of the United States?"
I'm going to guess, here -- not being a Southerner: they are all Americans first. Having Confederate sympathies -- even hating all things Northern -- take a poor second to being an American.
This is a great question that you can come at from many angles. First of all, I feel that most southerners at least the highly educated ones knew that when the war started, they didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning, but with the southern notion of their state being their country, they were duty bound to defend it. Quirky incidents throughout the war proved how easily the Confederate soldier who was verrrry long on bravery and stoutness was also an individual soul. Both times Lee crossed the Potomac, his army suffered thousands of deserters. Those gray jacketed boys had two things in mind, the harvests & the farm AND the fact that they wanted to Protect their country, not invade another one.
When Lee's army came back across into Virginia his ranks were again swelled with soldiers. Another thing that you must consider is the fact that they thought their seceding from the country was in fact the correct thing to do. THEY were strictly interpreting the constitution, the Yanks did not (their general opinion).
An item that bonded the two armies so there was little enmity after the war was the relationship that northern and southern officers had cultivated at West Point. As hard as both sides fought, as vicious as it got toward the end of the conflict, many of the officers shared that common experience at the Point. Throughout the war you see instances of Tom Rosser and Custer capturing each others baggage and making light of it. You see Union officers send a silver service through confederate lines to Pickett when they heard his wife had a baby. You see George Pickett who would NOT allow a nasty word about Lincoln to be said in front of him because Lincoln got him his appointment to West Point.
Look at the oft told tale of Armistead and Hancock and their closeness. But most of all, look at what happened at the surrender. The common West Point experience brought a terrible war with 620 K deaths to a conclusion with a hand shake and a parole. As yourself a question, could this have happened in any other country of this world?
During the Spanish American War, Three former Confederate cavalry Generals served in the AMERICAN army. Tom Rosser, Fitzhugh LEE and Joe Wheeler. Henry Kyd Douglas, former staff member of Stonewall Jackson's staff and commander of the last brigade to surrender at Appomattox, served as the commander of the Maryland militia.I think its pretty remarkable myself. For all the differences we always point out on these boards, Johnny Reb and Billy Yank were more alike than they were dissimilar.
Southerners have a right to proud of the armies they fielded in 1861-65. Very few other armies could have accomplished what they did with so few supplies and men. But they were also realists. King Cotton was proven a myth fairly quickly, they needed industry which the North provided. The two sections of the country needed each other whether they chose to believe it or not. When Grant was president, he appointed General John Gordon as an aambassor to Hawaii. Many people were making an effort to come together again. By the way, funny story. When Gordon was received by the Hawaiians, they had a band playing music as a reception. The piece was "Marching Through Georgia" I would have loved to have seen that.
One more piece of info regarding respect between the two sides. When Sherman died, Joe Johnston was at his funeral. As a sign of respect, Johnston took off his hat. It was raining out and the General was urgesd to put his hat back on. He refused to do so and died a week later of pneumonia.
In conclusion. I believe the two sections of the country were more alike then most people think. then as it its the politicians that screw everything up.
Ole, Care to tell us the title of that book you refer to?
Sam
"Why the South Lost the Civil War." Beringer, Hattaway, Jones and Still. The authors were all college history professors. I think Archer Jones was retired.
Another excellent thread with a thoughtful line of questions.
May I offer the following from a Confederate soldier of the period?
"America has no north, no south, no east, no west. The sun rises over the hills and sets over the mountains, the compass just points up and down, and we can laugh now at the absurd notion of there being a north and a south. We are one and undivided."
Sam Watkins, from his book, "Co. Aytch." A Side Show of the Big Show.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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