"
What else could they think, given their perspective, except that God wanted them to expand across the continent? Is that hubris or is that simply a wish to fulfill what they thought was God's will?"
I think that's blatant arrogance and religious chauvinism in its finest form. Romans, Eyptians, Babylonians etc. all believed they were "God's chosen" and acted accordingly...what made Americans more exceptional...racial superiority and greed? And how dangerous and insane is it to believe that you can never be wrong because "God is on your side." After all, suicide bombers are absolutely convinced that they are dying for the glory of Allah.
----------------------
Obviously your belief is different from their belief. Are you familiar with the Biblical story of the Children of Israel reaching the Promised Land? What did they do with the people who were living there already when they got there? Knowing that story, as a humble, moral, God-fearing 1840s-era American woman traveling west with her family, what would be your attitude toward the Indians? Try to put aside your feelings as a sophisticated, 21st Century Canadian woman and see through the eyes of that woman in the 1840s. Try to forget what we all know happened to the Indians in the 1870s for a moment and think about what you would know in the 1840s and only use that information.
"And how does "Northern capitalism" fit into all this? And why weren't "Southern capitalists" as hypocritical as "Northern capitalists," if indeed any of them were hypocritical?"
As an example of the hyprocricy of Northern Capitalism, I would like to suggest that you read Posting # 23.
---------------------
That post doesn't address "Northern Capitalism" in the era of Manifest Destiny. Once again, how does "Northern Capitalism" fit into Manifest Destiny, and why weren't "Southern capitalists" as hypocritical as "Northern capitalists?"
"I agree the Indians were defending their way of life. They didn't really conceive of land ownership, so they weren't really defending their land. The plains Indians were mostly nomadic, so they also weren't really defending their homes.But I agree with the other things they were defending. So essentially what we had was an irresistable force, people who saw themselves as fulfilling God's will, against an obstacle, Indians who were defending a way of life. It was a tragic collision because how can either side really compromise? If you see yourself as God's servant fulfilling His will, how can you say you'll stop fulfilling His will? If you see yourself as defending your way of life, how can you say you'll freely give it all up without a struggle?"
Are you suggesting that the Plains Indians were so puerile that they didn't even have a fundemental grasp of their own tribal territories, so therefore the land they lived on was up for grabs?
--------------------
Puerile has nothing to do with it. They had a different world view. They didn't believe the land belonged to anyone. By and large, they weren't territorial.
What exactly were the "Plains Indians" defending when Generals Sherman and Sheridan ("There's no good Indian like a dead Indian")
--------------------
He never said it.
destroyed their winter homes and food supply, which resulted in the deaths of many women and children?
---------------------
Like I said above, their way of life and their families.
Please forgive me Cash as for a moment I forgot that
meliority means you never have to say your sorry.
---------------------
I don't understand your point. Meliority means "the state or quality of being better" as in an improved situation. Why apologize for improving a situation?
"Yes, but the United States consisted of a Northern region and a Southern region, and you appear to be concentrating solely on one of those regions to the exclusion of the other."
You'll have to be more specific because I really do not see where I've done this...I've repeatedly referred to
all of the United States and made it clear that my interest in Manifest Destiny is not inclusive.
-------------------
Could be the repeated references to the "hypocrisy" of "Northern Capitalism." :-)
"Manifest Destiny itself was neither moral nor immoral. Some moral things were done in its name and some immoral things were done in its name."
I would be interested to learn some of the
moral examples of the Manifest Destiny, and are you suggesting that the Divine backing behind this concept was somewhat ambiguous?
----------------------
There were people who had a genuine humanitarian outlook toward the Indians and sought to ameliorate their condition.
What I'm saying is that the concept of Manifest Destiny itself was neither moral nor immoral. Actions taken were either moral or immoral, but the idea itself, of expanding because God had given us this land, was neither moral nor immoral.
You can justify almost anything when you claim that non-white people are unable to govern themselves or look after the land that they live on; and that you are liberating people from their own ignorance, idleness, and stupidity (whether they want it or not)... in the name of God. The pomposity behind the belief that one has a direct calling from God is quite daunting, and this message seems to conveniently resonate when a society has been deemed "inferior."
--------------------------
Well, again, nothing on capitalism as a driving force. What you've described above is not racism as the driving force but rather racism as a facilitator. The central idea is to expand. What you've described above is racism providing one of the justifications for actions that had to be done to facilitate that expansion. The expansion didn't happen because whites didn't like Indians. That would have been racism as a driving force.
Writing in September
1864, the
Reverend William Crawford reported on the attitude of the white population of Colorado: “There is but one sentiment in regard to the final disposition which shall be made of the Indians: ‘Let them be exterminated—men, women, and children together.’”
------------------
Bad girl, Dawna, taking a quote out of context.
"Colorado was especially tense. Cheyenne and Arapahoe Indians, who had legitimate grievances against the encroaching white settlers, also fought for the sheer joy of combat, the desire for booty, and the prestige that accrued from success. The overland route to the East was particularly vulnerable: at one point in 1864, Denver was cut off from all supplies, and there were several butcheries of entire families at outlying ranches. In one gruesome case, all of the victims were scalped, the throats of the two children were cut, and the mother’s body was ripped open and her entrails pulled over her face.
"Writing in September 1864, the Reverend William Crawford reported on the attitude of the white population of Colorado: 'There is but one sentiment in regard to the final disposition which shall be made of the Indians: ‘Let them be exterminated—men, women, and children together.’' Of course, he added, 'I do not myself share in such views.' The Rocky Mountain News, which at first had distinguished between friendly and hostile Indians, likewise began to advocate extermination of this 'dissolute, vagabondish, brutal, and ungrateful race.' With the regular army off fighting the Civil War in the South, the western settlers depended for their protection on volunteer regiments, many lamentably deficient in discipline." [Guenter Lewy, "Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide?"
http://historynewsnetwork.com/articles/7302.html ]
And note the date. This is after the era of Manifest Destiny.
William Duer (New York Representative) commented at the
onset of the Mexican War: "If you wish this plunder, this dismemberment of a sister republic, let us stand forth like conquerors and plainly declare our purposes…. Away with mawkish morality, with this desecration of religion, with this cant about Manifest Destiny, a divine mission, a warrant from the Most High, to civilize, Christianize and democratize our sister republic at the mouth of a cannon!"
---------------------
Now here's a good quote from the era itself. And I really must thank you for providing it, because Mr. Duer's speech confirms everything I've been saying about the driving force behind Manifest Destiny. In that same speech he said,
"Mr. Calhoun laid it down as a fundamental principle--antagonistic to the British policy, frankly avowed by the British minister, that that Government, where it could do so without impropriety, sought throughout the world the abolition of slavery--that the Government of this country claimed the right to interfere for the purpose of preventing the abolition of slavery throughout the world, wherever its abolition would be injurious to the institution in this country; and it was one of his propositions that, wherever any foreign State borders on a slaveholding State of this Union, it is unsafe to permit such foreign State to be a free State. He [Mr. Calhoun] held that the institution of slavery was a philanthropical institution, a humane institution; that the effect of it was to preserve the colored race from the idiocy, from insanity, from pauperism, and the like evils. It follows unquestionably [said Mr. D.] from these principles, if well-founded, that the measure of annexation [of Texas] was justifiable. If so, if Mr. Calhoun was justifiable in going to war with Mexico for the purpose of more firmly establishing slavery in Texas, then the President of the United States was justifiable in further prosecuting this war for the purpose of establishing slavery in Mexico; for Mexico now bordered on a slaveholding State, and it was as much the duty of this Government to protect this institution in Texas as it was in Louisiana or Arkansas. Nor did the principle stop there. We must go onward, and onward, conquering, annexing, and introducing slavery into all our sister republics, until we shall have spread all over the American continent." [William Duer, US House of Representatives, 14 Feb 1848,
Congressional Globe, 30th Congress, 1st Session, p. 344]
Luke Lea (Commissioner of Indian Affairs 1850-1853) denounced Indians as barbarians that needed to be conquered so that their lands may be given to good "Christian People."
----------------------------------
Oh, I don't deny the Indians were looked on this way. But you were conflating the actions of the 1870s with Manifest Destiny of the 1840s.
In 1859, Horace Greeley wrote the following passage: "
To the prosaic observer, the Indian of the woods and prairies is a human being who does little credit to human nature, a slave of appetite and sloth, ...I could not help saying, 'These people must die out, there is no help for them. God has given this Earth to those who will subdue and cultivate it, and it is vain to struggle against his righteous decree."
------------------------
And in the same essay he wrote, "I urge, therefore, that in future efforts to improve the condition of the Indians, the women be specially regarded and appealed to. A conscientious, humane, capable Christian trader, with a wife thoroughly skilled in household manufactures and handicraft, each speaking the language of the tribe with whom they take up their residence, can do more good than a dozen average missionaries. Let them keep and sell whatever articles are adapted to the Indians' needs and means, and let them constitute and maintain an industrial school, in which the Indian women and children shall be freely taught how to make neatly and expeditiously not only moccasins, but straw hats, bonnets, and (in time) a hundred other articles combining taste with utility. Let a farm and garden be started so soon as may be, and vegetables, grain, fruits given therefrom in exchange for Indian labor therein, at all times when such labor can be made available. Of course, the school, though primarily industrial, should impart intellectual and religious instruction also, wisely adapted in character and season to the needs of the pupils, and to their perception of those needs." [Horace Greeley, "From Letter 13: 'Lo! the Poor Indian!" From
An Overland Journey, from New York to San Francisco, in the Summer of 1859 http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/railto...ndgreeley.html ]
General Pope: "It is my purpose to exterminate the Sioux."
Andrew Myrick (referring to the starving Santee/Dakota)
: "So far as I am concerned, if they are hungry let them eat grass or their own dung."
------------------------
Ooh, bad girl again, Dawna. :-)
These comments were from 1862, in relation to the Dakota-US conflict in Minnesota, also known as the Sioux Uprising. And you took Gen Pope's comment way out of context. Here it is in context:
"The horrible massacres of women and children and the outrageous abuse of female prisoners, still alive, call for punishment beyond human power to inflict. There will be no peace in this region by virtue of treaties and Indian faith. It is my purpose utterly to exterminate the Sioux if I have the power to do so and even if it requires a campaign lasting the whole of next year. Destroy everything belonging to them and force them out to the plains, unless, as I suggest, you can capture them. They are to be treated as maniacs or wild beasts, and by no means as people with whom treaties or compromises can be made. [Letter to Sibley, Sept. 28,1862]
As you can see, he said those words after depredations by the Indians themselves, not because of Manifest Destiny.
General Sheridan: "We took away their country and their means of support, and it was for this and against this they made war. Could anyone expect less?
-------------------------
Again, looking back from after the Indian Wars.
The above statements only serve to reinforce my acceptance that Manifest Destiny is merely justification to forcibly take what you want, and
..."places the responsibility of the destruction of a people on the victims rather than on the perpetrators; which is easily done when you label a society as morally inferior. And if your 'theory' is supported by Almighty God, this further removes human will or intent."
-----------------------
Do you allow for the possibility that they were sincere in their belief that God had given them this continent and therefore wanted them to expand?
Regards,
Cash
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
