The Benevolence of the Manifest Destiny

[russ_aukerman]

Dawna -

"Searching for truth and exposing hypocricy does not equate to being anti anything, and this thread was not created to be a sounding board for anti-American or pro-South rhetoric. My hope was to have an honest and respectful discussion regarding some of these issues, because always in the back of my mind, is that we owe at least this much to the 600,000+ men, women, and children, who rest in senseless graves."

Manifest destiny really sounds like a good thing, doesn't it? Like we had no control over it, simply filling in the vacuum of land created by God and nature for America. I don't remember precisely learning of it in elementary school, but I'm sure I got the politically correct spin on it; as I'm sure most of us did.

Oh, you said you wanted an honest thread. Sorry. We don't do well with honesty here. It interferes with out vision of ourselves. And were not sure we want you interfering either. :-)

If forced to think to hard, or honestly, about MD, we get a little defensive. Like there's something more sinister behind the words that we'd rather not face. I doubt that Holocaust threads go over too well on German message boards, either. But, then, what would you expect mass killing of nearly an entire race, for power, money and land, to engender in the killers. You just go on and talk about it though - we like that free speech thing. Don't mind if we don't jump in, though. The water is a little cold in that part of the pond.

On a different tact, though, I don't understand your apparant connection between MD and the ACW. IMO, there's very little connection between the two. Even regaining what you'd lost in seceeded states doesn't seem consistent with MD, as you are just getting back what you already had. I look forward to your thoughts.

[johan_steele]

"The stain on the US is our treatment of the Native American and Slavery. The stain of slavery was paid for in blood. THe treatment of Native Americans... is a crushing, unforgivable stain that shall haunt us for ever. Though the only consulation is we were neither the first nor the last to exterminate a culture for the "greater good." Aka "Pacification by force" in Ireland, Scotland, Australia, India, the Opium Wars, etc."

Comic book... are any of these statements false? Pacification by force specifically deals w/ Australia and the dealings w/ the Aborigine a situation remarkably similar to the US dealings w/ the Native American. Were the actions of the Empire in dealing w/ Ireland, Scotland, India, China etc any more moral than anyone elses International and internal dealings? I am merely statig the fact that the US has not been alone in immoral actions and the chance that US politicos looked to such actions as setting precedent.

There might well be some fascinating parallels w/ the dealings of the Empire & Ireland & Scotland to the US dealings w/ the CS... though to be honest I see very few.


As to debate... dogpiling does seem to be the order of the day.

Aphillbilly... the South is/was part of the US. No other nation on earth ever recognized the CSA as a legitimate nation or govt. No matter how much some might wish it not to be so. THe South lost its vie for a nation based upon slavery; and that defeat at least got started the washing away of the stain of slavery. Though I don't believe it was truly washed away for another century plus.

I wasn't aware of a South bashing championship... did I miss the memo? Are those w/ a blatant hatred of the North censored? Are their views censored or suppressed, has their right to speak their mind ever been stomped on here? Are people w/ an opposite view to theirs to be accorded the same rights and respect as they expect? I hope so.

Southerners seem to have done quite well in the arena of US politics... we have had several presidents and long standing politicians from the South. Unfortunately, there are those of Ted Kennedy's ilk from the North and the South was kind enough to give us the Bird in exchange. To be honest though I think most of the Country would have preffered their respective states had not shared them.

As to Manifest Destiny... I expect to hear a lot more about it. I even expect to learn a little something.

[bill_torrens]

Normally I can cope with the asinine and the ill-mannered on those rare occasions when I confront them on CWT. I can go for a walk, come back, slip on an Allman Bros. album and pour a nice cold Chardonnay. Sorted.

But now I’ve had enough. On two occasions either I or Dawna have raised the issue of whether foreigners can really engage in these debates in a way that doesn’t offend good taste. On both occasions we were assured that an outsider’s perspective was welcome.

But that’s not how it works in practice. In practice, criticism of the North and of the Federal government of the 1860s is received by a bunch of unreconstructed xenophobes as if it were criticism of the whole of America. And so, time after dreary time, we have to put up with the jibes directed at our own countries - which cannot be debated here because they are entirely off the point. Which is why it is so bloody rude to make them in the first place.

No European, Asian, Iraqi or African town liberated by US troops ever feared summary execution, mass rape etc. as they did from German, Russian & even apparently from Brit troops.

As I’ve just said, this cannot be debated here. But I want to go on record as saying that I consider this statement unforgivable and will no longer communicate with the person who made it.

When I first joined these boards I received the most cordial of welcomes. Until I let slip that my sympathies were with the South. I then received a lengthy post ridiculing my country in terms so jaw-droppingly offensive that it was only my sense of curiosity that stopped me from walking away at once.

Any curiosity I had then has since been well and truly sated. Why can’t you just be honest? If foreign criticism of the Union cause (even if based on scholarship) is more than you are prepared to stomach, at least be men enough to say so.

There is a good chance that there is an equivalent site to this dealing with the English Civil War. And I know that quite a number of Americans are interested in that subject. It would make me sick to my stomach to think that a Yank expressing enthusiastic support for either King or Parliament would be accused of being anti-British. Or be subjected to criticism of his own country.

So let’s convene the remedial class for one last time. Watch the blackboard: “It is not anti-American to criticise the Union cause.” I hope this lesson is learned, because if I have to cope with one more “patriot” indignantly responding to an attack on his country which was never made in the first place I shall book a cheap flight and come round and punch his lights out. Enough already.

[johan_steele]

"It is not anti-American to criticise the Union cause.” It isn't & I have never said so. I value intelligent posts from those well read individuals w/ the integrity to speak their minds and who have the intelligence to back up their opinions w/ scholarship. I also appreciate those who have the ability to learn and evolve opinions. Something that is generally present on this board.

[ole]

I'm with Russ on this one. "Manifest Destiny" was exciting when the Louisiana Territories were purchased. It was a given when Texas won it's independence and Mexico was somewhat rudely kicked around. It had nothing to do with the ACW.

By 1860, the states and territories were all but a hair away from forming what would eventually be the USofA.

The use of "The Benevolence of Manifest Destiny" and "The Philosphy of Coercion" are thinly veiled excuses for bashing the Northern Side. From those bases, it is easy enough to slip in word's like "hypocracy" and "capitalist greed."

But then, as humans, we have a habit of bashing. So, if you're human, bash away, but don't get upset if you get bashed back.

Shall we get cheerful and resume study of Manifest Destiny and its irrelevance?

[8thvacav]

[quote=johan_steele I value intelligent posts from those well read individuals w/ the integrity to speak their minds and who have the intelligence to back up their opinions w/ scholarship. [/QUOTE]
How can you say that? Anything that's said against the Union, according to you is a myth or garbage. There are three on here that I pretty much know what they are going to say before they say it. I have never seen these three agree with anything said good about the south. That is one reason I don't like to post much on here. I get tired of having it throw-en back in my face. This is a very good board and has a lot of good info on it. I don't think it needs this arging, and that's what is. Not debating! That was very rude attacking Bill and Dawna's country. They never said anything about the USA. Just the Union. That's a big difference. JMO & MTC.
Martin

[unionblue]

An interesting viewpoint of Manifest Destiny, from the Mexican view to be more percise.

http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar...stdestiny.html

And another view with some good background information.

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/E/manifest/manifxx.htm

Dawna, is it your contention that the concept of American Manifest Destiny was fueled wholely by Northern capitalists or do you contend this was a concept embraced by the entire (USA) country at the time?

As a personal aside concerning the other discussion ongoing on this thread, it reminded me of a quote I read some time back.

"My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate cause. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.' G.K. Chesterton.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[dawna]

It's unfortunate that yet another new thread has been turned into a present day battleground for spurious accusations, and blatant rudeness. This mystifies me, and although I've tried to ignore the latest remarks regarding the intent of this thread, I find that I simply can't. Call your responses a Northern trait if you like - that ability to straight-talk or shoot from the hip...there's a number of ways that you can dress this up and send it off to the prom. But I'm calling it something else.

I've waited many years to devote my time to a Civil War study group such as this, and for the most part it has been great fun and an enormous learning experience for me. I've made some wonderful friendships here and for that alone, I am most grateful. I lurked for a long time before I posted anything, and it was Thea who inspired me to do so. Here is a Southern woman who personifies passion, intelligence, wisdom and humour and whose postings are often met with disdain, ridicule, and disparagement. Thea deserves so much more, and it distresses me to see her receive so much less.

My other good friend, Bill, has already expressed his feelings regarding some of the postings on this thread, and I agree with him one hundred per cent. We do contribute our fair share on these Boards, and I can assure you that I would not be doing so, if I harboured "anti-American" feelings, or if my sole purpose in joining CWT was to 'bash the Union.' This is a passion of mine, and if I have been anything but polite and respectful in any one of my postings, then I could at least try to understand some of the rationale behind these responses.

You can tell me that my postings are 'irrelevant,' or that they are 'nice', 'quaint,' 'Marie Osmond wishful thinking' or anything else you'd like to call them. You can even ridicule and attack the authors that I choose to read, and all of this I will accept with grace, and chalk it up for what it's worth. But do not accuse me of shouldering a 'thinly disguised agenda' when there is none, and if I have something to say on this Thread, it will not be under the guise of slippery rhetoric. If hypocricy and capitalist greed are offensive concepts to you, then you best consider this Thread a four letter word.

I thought the conception of the Philosophy of Coercion thread was a brilliant one, and it gave us all something new and refreshing to work with. But this Thread also turned into a 'battleground' in it's early stages, to the point where some posts had to be deleted. And now it has become quite clear that Bill's Thread has been viewed as nothing more than an attempt to 'bash the North,' despite Bill's guidelines and honest intentions from the beginning.

This has become so nonsensical that I'm really not certain I have anything else to say on these Boards. All I've ever wanted was open, genuine, and respectful discussions, and over and over again, we are derailed by our attempts to pacify others, and to dispel the notion that we hate Americans. It's dispiriting, and totally unnecessary, so I will say this one last time. If you don't want my Canadian opinion on this site, then speak up now, for I don't expect to hear these accusations again. I have no problem with immersing myself in some of the less 'sticky' threads...like poetry.

Dawna

[sgtcsa]

Bill,
As in your post #8, I must confess, that I too, have had some critical words for our Union government of the 1850-60's. If that is UnAmerican, then I am to blame also.
It really doesn't bother me though, for I 'calls'em as I sees'em. My opinion is just as good as anyone's, my values are as just as good, and our historians are just as good, and it makes me really ponder the question........Was the South really wrong? Being a Southerner, and being bombarded with the same old tripe such as.......'You were fighting for slavery', just makes me realize just how narrow minded a lot of people really were, and are. Say what they will, but I know for a fact, that my ancestors didn't kill themselves (literally) just to keep some black person in bondage.

Just as I am sure that their ancestors didn't stop some black person from living in their state. As a Southerner, I've become accustomed to the same old stuff thrown at me about the South being wrong with all that she did to not only start the war, but all of the actions causing the war. I don't believe most of it, and let it go at that. They believe they're right, and I'm okay with that, just as long as they don't tell me we were all wrong. Bill, you and Dawna are, in some ways, more knowledgeable about some of our history, than a great deal of our own citizens. I for one, enjoy yours and Dawna's posts, very much, and I would love to see you continue on with the 'debates' on this board. Sometimes things are said that shouldn't be, not because they are really that malicious, but that they are caught up in trying to defend their position, and lash out, trying to establish their point.

Yep, it is true, we are all Americans, Bill and Dawna, excepted, North and South, however, even I, get tired of being told how bad we were. It's a tradition not taken to very well any more ( AP, I see the 'humor' in your response...) I think, if the truth be known, I think they're (The North) are a little jealous because the South got most of the glory. Now THAT will generate some controversy, I bet! Bill and Dawna, you both are really great folks, but let me interject something here. It's something like...............brother and sister? We fight among ourselves, beat on each other and such, but please, don't let someone outside the family even think of saying something against us, or all Heck will break loose. You guys are family here on this board, I realize this, but when it comes to countries..........sometimes, just as you found out, we have our own brand of 'sectionalism'.

With that, perhaps our Northern breathern will equate that with how the South felt during the 1850-60's. Note, that there are not a lot of die hard Southerners here, but the ones that are, will fight tooth and nail to defend their and her's, heritage. I must say that I live only 5 miles from our border with Canada, and I too, travel quite extensively in the Province of British Columbia, and I love it. I spent 2 really great years in Great Briton (England), at RAF Brize Norton, and would love to return someday. As for me, I don't see either of you (Dawna or Bill), bashing this country. I appreciate all you bring to this board, and your knowledge about our War Between the States, astounds(?) me! This country was founded on the ability to speak your mind, whether you actually live here or not, and your criticism of the North and her government's actions, is certainly nothing nothing new by anyone. If you don't believe in what is taking place, then speak your mind.

Tommy, I appreciate you. Bill, Dawna, Thea, I appreciate you also. Perhaps it's because we're brothers (and sisters), in league with a common cause. I will defend the position with you, and I will always be at your side in all of these 'confrontations', and I will be back to back with you, defending your back. If I didn't believe that you were right, I wouldn't be here with y'all. By golly, I live for this. It's a Southern thing.

With respect to all,
SgtCSA

[unionblue]

Dawna & Bill,

I do not intend to repeat this and feel that it is totally unrequired for any member of this board debating the causes of the Civil War, Manifest Destiny, etc.

I have never felt that either of you have been anti-American in any of your statements, reasoning, presentations on any thread on this board. While I have and do disagree with you (and others) over some of your conclusions and reasoning, I have never once felt my country was threatened nor under any kind of attack nor did I feel myself losing my patriotic zeal when either of you advanced a line of thought favorable to the South. A quote by Adlai Stevenson comes to mind, when describing one of my own views on patriotism.

"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."

My own recent view of my duty to my country is reflected in another quote.

"My country, if right, to be kept right, and, if wrong, to be set right." Sen. Charles Schurz.

In my own mind's eye, you are two members of this board, able to present your own views, arguments, reasons, theories and just plain wrong conclusions concerning an event that took place over 140 years ago in this country. I don't care if you are from Mars or Venus, England or Canada, just make your argument/presentation and then be prepared to defend them.

If I have ever seemed to discredit either of you because of your nation of origin, I apologize. If I have ever seemed to discredit either of you because of the arguments you present, tough.

I seem to recall some cuts and bruises myself when presenting my own arguments and getting some tough responses (in a very polite and respectful manner) from the both of you. The process is called debate and I have had a good time engaging you both in the process. I wish that process to continue.

If you choose not to continue, it is your right and your choice and I will regret that loss of a chance to learn something new from a different perspective. I will not regret coming to my own conclusions and trying to stand by them and prove them and debate them. I do not expect either of you to regret your stances on the late war either.

In short, you are fellow board members and I will continue to treat you as such. You have the right to present your theories and reasons and proof and to have them slapped down, ignored and disbelieved, just as mine and others here are. And on that rare occassion, actually prove a point beyond doubt and counter-argument.

One last thought to all participating on this thread.

"Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man." Thomas Tusser.

Being afraid to hear any negative comments about one's country, to me, is seemingly like a tact admission that your country is too weak or flawed to stand up to any serious examination by others. As that is not the case here, can we please move on and discuss the main issue of this thread?

Dawna, could I please ask if you would respond to my previous question in my above post #17?

Thank you,
Unionblue