What's the Fox letter?

[nicolo]

Good point also, Raymond. I certainly can't argue against it.

[hawglips]

Neil, your account here, though heart-warming, bears no resemblance to the historical facts surrounding it.

In case there was any question on what the Southerners could expect from him, Lincoln made his point very clearly and forcefully the day he took office -- he would indeed invade if necessary to collect taxes and occupy the forts.

His ultimatum to the South -- I will give you peace if you give up your declared independence. If you persist, I will force your capitulation at point of the bayonet."

Davis' terms were equally firm -- we want peace, and excepting honor and independence, we will sacrifice anything for it.

Lincoln would not allow their independence. Davis would not give it up without a fight.

Since his attempt at Pickens didn't work, Sumter was where Lincoln chose to make good on his inaugural threat.

Hal

[nicolo]

Neil, I am new here, but surely you have informed these people that Lincoln could not turn any Federal property over to anybody, much less a foreign power. Personal convictions aside, even that pathetic dough face President Buchanan stated that only Congress could dispose of Federal property. At the time even if Lincoln deigned to negotiate with the South, it was not an impossibility for him to have been immediately impeached for usurption and depending on the temper of Congress maybe for treason.
Some of the posters on this thread seem to be under the impression that Lincoln could have solved the problem with a simple wave of a pen, even if he had wanted to kow tow to southern arrogance.

[thea_447]

Nicolo,

Neil doesn't need to "inform people" here of anything. We have all discussed many many elements of the WBTS for quite a while here. I would suggest that you do what Neil suggested the other day: Read the archives. We have reams of information available, enough for several books, of material that we've hashed and re-hashed on these boards.

It will help you and give you new insight to the group as a whole.

[unionblue]

Nicolo,

Thea is quite right, I do not need to inform anyone of the correct, historical fact that you mentioned in your above post concerning Lincoln having the legal responsibility not to turn over federal property to rebels. It's just that in trying to convince my Southern friends of that detail, I run into stubborn resistance!

What you will find here, my new friend, are many different opinions and versions of what board members consider important, fact, fiction, lies and the truth.

The search for your own truth, the journey if you will, is the fun part. Even when you do not agree with your fellow board members and sometimes when you think its their medication talking, these very same opposing views will force you to rethink and review your own highly valued opinions and beliefs and check in on your soul once in a while. Every one has an opinion on the Civil War, but the courage to put that opinion and belief and conviction out there for all to see and to fire at, THAT takes courage and conviction.

Which is why even when Thea, Tommy, Hal, William, Doug, Bill, Shane, Gary, Zou, Michael and all the other friends I have here, drive me absolutely crazy with their theories, plots, renditions, versions and maddening conclusions, I respect the HELL out of them. Ideas and convictions are like your children. You want to keep them close and protect them at all costs. To send them out into the cruel, hostile world of this board takes guts.

Come on in and play, and enjoy your own sessions of soul-searching, Nicolo. You'll be all the better for it and I surely could use the help!

Sincerely,
Unionblue
PS Raymond, if I have not said so before, Welcome to the board! I hope that you and Nicolo have went to the New Members area and introduced yourselves. You can give us a little of your backgrounds and opinions on the late war and let the other members say 'hey!' and 'welcome!'

(Message edited by Unionblue on January 24, 2004)

[unionblue]

Hal,

I beg to inform you that my 'heartwarming account' is very much based on historical fact. I also tried very hard to get two sources from respected, award-winning historians.

I do not argue with you or differ on the fact that Lincoln did express his views on keeping the forts and collecting revenue, but these points do not conflict with the information I have presented. Feel free to check out the books at a local library and confirm my entries.

I will admit, the conclusions that I draw from the above historical facts are my own, but it still does not make them any less true.

I also notice you include in your post what, at first glance, appear to be quotes from President Lincoln and President Davis.

Are these direct quotes and if they are, could you please tell me what source you got them from? I admit I cannot remember every Lincoln and Davis quote and I am not familiar with these two.

Again, I agree with you when you state Lincoln would not allow their (the South's) independence, but I beg to differ on the last word and change it to read, for me, rebellion.

And what attempt are you refering to when you speak of Fort Pickens? Another plot to 'force/coerece/provoke/bully/trick' the South into war? Did you know that the South also made the first attempt at force at Pickens also?

And I am of the opinion again, that Lincoln did every thing in his power in his inaugural speech to avoid war. But I am afraid those in control in the South would have none of it.

YMOS,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on January 24, 2004)

[nicolo]

Sorry, if I hurt some feelings. But my point still stands, what could Lincoln have done in his capacity as President, to assuage the hurt feelings of the Southern Gov't without his acting unconstitutionally.
Whatever his personal feelings, his only legal option would have been to order the evacuation of the fort. His only defense at his impeachment could only have been that by doing so he hoped to reassure the South that the U.S. Gov't did not mean the any harm and Thus encourage them to remain in the Union. He had no power or authority to let the South secede.
As already noted, Davis and the Confederate Gov't had already set a firm course for Independence no matter what the Federal Gov't did or did not do. Lincoln would, literally, have sacrificed his political career, if not his life, for nothing.

[hawglips]

Neil: I also notice you include in your post what, at first glance, appear to be quotes from President Lincoln and President Davis.

Are these direct quotes and if they are, could you please tell me what source you got them from? I admit I cannot remember every Lincoln and Davis quote and I am not familiar with these two.

My above paraphrasing is primarily from these two quotes:

"...we protest solemnly in the face of mankind that we desire peace at any sacrifice save that of honor and independence; we ask no conquest, no aggrandizement, no concession of any kind from the States with which we were lately confederated; all we ask is to be let alone; that those who never held power over us shall not now attempt our subjugation by arms." (President Jefferson Davis, 29 April, 1861)

"The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion -- no using of force against or among the people anywhere." (Lincoln's 1st Inaugural)

I appreciate your "rebellion" request. However, that word denotes a subservient position of one side to the other prior to secession. Therefore, rebellion does not fit what happened in 1860-1861, IMO.

That being said, independence or rebellion -- they are just two sides of the same coin -- the coin declaring that all men are endowed with the rights of self-government -- the rights upon which our country was established.

Hal

[unionblue]

Hal,

Thank you for your full quotes listed above.

Except for the phrase 'self-government' which I think should read, 'the right of rebellion' not a bad response.

Sincerely,
Unionblue