Slavery, would it have died out in the US without the war?

[johan_steele]

Aphillbilly,

I also respect the Romans, Moors, Mongols and Apaches for the same reason I respect the CSA soldier... I suggest you read something about the Waffen SS before you pass judgement, they were more like the standard Wermacht by 1943 than you might think... If you would like I might pass a few titles to you. Though it's on a non CW subject.

It seems to me that you're throwing out info on wage slaves to cloud the issue. Congrats you've done a good job of it.

Neil,

I think the prices of slaves increasing was an issue of inflation and supply & demand. There was no more import of slaves from Africa... The "slave breeders" efforts were only just really begining to come to fruitition. IIRC The... rape farms, for lack of a better term, in Virginia & Georgia were only started in 1845 or so. I wish I could find the reference to one of the owners names. IIRC the facts correctly in 1860 he was reasssuring his "investors" that the children were coming along nicely and would be strong and robust. He had suceeded in selling some of the children to forward thinking planters and had purchased several more fetching women. THe arrival of Union troops in the area ruined him. It should have gotten him hung.

I think because of such despicable efforts and the firm belief that if Secession had been peaceful or succesful the international slave trade would have been reopened the prices of Slaves would have leveled off and perhaps even dropped somewhat. In other words no end in site.

Shane,

I think I need to point something out. I did not bring up the issue of wage slaves. Neil mentioned it once or twice I believe.

You brought it up before me by telling me I best do research on it.

My only reference to that point on wage slaves was an oblique one. Post on September 11, 2003 - 02:18 am. I said I thought I remembered something I'd found about the underground railroad while researching wage slaves long ago. That's it. Which in, bringing it up was not about wage slaves but me seeming to remember an interesting story of the underground railroad being hijacked by someone.

I think you were the one brought up wage slaves in post September 11, 2003 - 08:31 am. Not me. All the facts regarding wage slave I have presented since then have only been in response to your telling me I'd best do research. Ok?

Just trying to clear things up. Would not want them cloudy. Whereas your blantant accusations that I am trying to "cloud the issue" is in fact, baseless. Since it wasn't me brought it up to start with. So who is trying to cloud an issue here? Or is it just the need to attack me or insinuate I somehow need to learn more?

Will sit here and wait for your next attack upon my person, I'm starting to get used to it.

YMOS
tommy

Also, I have been reading and collecting books on every topic I can for the last 30 years. The total now is well over 3000 books. The bulk of my books relating to war are on WWII. You got a title you "suggest" I read on the Waffen SS, pass it on, if I don't have it I'll give it a look and perhaps I will see if I can get it.


(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 12, 2003)

[mobile_96]

Shane,
"firm belief that if Secession had been peaceful or succesful the international slave trade would have been reopened the prices of Slaves would have leveled off and perhaps even dropped somewhat. In other words no end in site."
I don't believe that the slave trade would have been reopened. You should remember that the importation of slaves had ceased, for the most part, years before the Confederacy was formed. And the number of slaves had increased just from normal population growth. Although not recognizing 'family' the slave owners did encourage marriages, with the more the children the better, as each one 'increased' the wealth of the owner and, of course, the workers. If he had enought slaves for his needs the excess numbers were sold away or rented.
And when the Confederate Constitution was drawn up, in Article 1, Section 9-Part 1, The importation of negroes of the African race, from any foreign country, other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden: and Congress if required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same".
Just a few thoughts
Chuck in Il.

[johan_steele]

Charles.. Thank You... I had never noted the Article refering to the importation of Slaves w/in the CSA constitution. I've read the bloody thing twice in detail & often use it for reference. Looks like I've got a wee bit of Crow to eat. Hmmm stewed or broiled? W/ lots of onions & some tomatoes... I can survive it. I stand corrected, and appreciate the correction.

I was refrencing an article w/in a Richmond paper written shortly after Richmond was designated as the CSA Capital... I'm working from memory here so firgive me if I'm off. I'm guessing perhaps 3 mos after Montgomery.

Like I've said: The day I stop learning is the day I die.

[johan_steele]

Aphillbilly,

Do you have the reference handy for what states in the US spend more on Prisons than both Social Programs and Education combined? I believe you posted it in your first or perhaps second post to this thread. I've tried finding a reference on the net and have had no luck. Most of what I've found shows education as the highest percentage of budgets.

My opinions on the rights of criminals is... not nice and isn't really needed here.

If I've offended you in my prior posts... it was not intended. What can I say, I'm blunt and occasionally an *******. I have no sympathy for the Lost Cause mentality, this is not a secret.

As I've said, I appreciate intelligent discourse w/ people who view the world differently than I. At the very least it gives me a more varied view of things and I do enjoy learning something new. I've even been known to change my opinion about matters when I learn more about things.

I bid you a good day.

PS I'll overlook your typos if you'll ignore mine... I think mine are worse. Incidently, how could I be superior to anybody as often as I mistype my own name!

Shane,

http://www.computertakeback.com/****...nfactsheet.cfm

Contains link to California State Comptroller’s Office that wasn’t working now.

http://www.prisonactivist.org/prison-labor/

http://www.theblackbook.net/acad/tag.../usprison.html

http://www.totse.com/en/politics/police/167421.html

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill.../whatsnew.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech....recycling.ap/


http://www.prisonerlife.com/articles/articleID=17.cfm


http://www.prisonactivist.org/prison-labor/

http://kcd.com/goa/issues/2000/q1/Jail.htm

http://www.mackinac.org/depts/ecodev...le.asp?ID=4193


http://www.itvs.org/shift/prison.html

http://www.refuseandresist.org/resis...isonlabor.html


http://www.wpi.edu/News/TechNews/010...sonlabor.shtml


http://www.washingtonfreepress.org/36/prison.html

I can attest this issue has not been bigger in any state than my own, Tennessee. Or perhaps I should say light is finally being shed on it. It may be just as grim in other states.

I have two brothers that work in the corrections feild as guards. One in Florida, one in Tennessee. (Ironically the one in Tennessee once did a 3 year stretch in a Florida State prison for cattle rustling, no kidding)

While I grant you there are many criminals who justly belong there, you have the bulk of them that are there now on the new war on drug crimes. (99 years without parole for growing marjauna in Oklahoma etc.) Both brothers are hard core right winger christian fundamentalists. Yet both are sickened by the blantant use of labor as well as the unrealistic laws to keep that labor etc.... they maintain when they started working in the prisons, most in prison were hard core criminals. Yet the majority of the ones go in now, go in working class citizens and come out criminals.


The State run prisons have been ordered to not exceed a certain population, so they build more prisons. etc. Money earmarked for education ends up in building new prisons.

Anyway there might be something you can find of interest.

[unionblue]

Friends,

I have had some dear friends on this board tell me that slavery was on its way out for two very good reasons before the Civil War and if let alone, the institution would have died out in a generation at most.

One reason is that the main cash crop, cotton, could not expand much more than at pre Civil War levels and that slavery could not expand to other areas of the country, that the institution had 'natural limits' it could not expand past.

I present to you some words from the book, Time On The Cross, The Economics of American Negro Slavery:

Page 96-97.

"...the quantity of land devoted to cotton did not remain constant at the 1859 level. Quite the contrary, it grew at a rate (2.06 percent per annum) which was in excess of the growth rate of the black labor force. In other words, <u>the assumption that the quantity of additional land available for use in cotton was almost exhausted by 1860 is false.</u> The land devoted to cotton nearly doubled between 1860 and 1890; it more than doubled between 1890 and 1925."

So does this fact kill one idea that slavery was going to die out due to the land being exhausted by cotton?

As to the idea the South was producing too much cotton and would have experienced a drop in profits, I give you page 94:

"To summarize: The unprecedented increase in cotton production after 1857 was due to a rapid advance in the world demand for US cotton. The lag of cotton supply behind demand caused the price of cotton to rise well above normal levels, creating unusually large profits for planters. While planters responded to this incentive, they did not increase output rapidly enough to return cotton prices and profits to a normal level.

Thus, the tale about the uncommercial planter who was gripped by an irresistible tendency to the overproduction of cotton is sheer fantasy."

Unionblue


(Message edited by Unionblue on October 18, 2003)

[tamaroa]

Good afternoon Neil:

Sorry but I cannot subscribe to that theory. Everything and I do mean everything that I have ever read and been taught indicates that slavery was on its way out mid nineteenth century. I have ordered the book you recommend and will try to read it with an open mind. You will cost me some money though because I will need to buy other books using different sources to confirm the same. Crops like cotton and rice possibly tobacco were linked with slavery. As farming methodology and technology increased and crop rotation came into being, I cannot see how slavery would have remained profitable. But like I say. I'll read the book and let you know how I feel.

I'm reading Jefferson Davis American right now and find it to be fascinating. The man was a lot more human than I ever gave him credit for.

Bill

[unionblue]

Bill,

I know where you are coming from, believe me. The information in the book. Time on the Cross, definately shocked me in a few areas.

The book is at the library if you don't want to spend the bucks and a later book, Without Consent or Contract: The Rise and Fall of American Slavery, by Fogel is a continuation of the theme raised in the first book. I intend to check that one out too, to further confirm the findings.

I have a fellow co-worker here that says he took a course in college based on the book and the principles of 'cliometrics', the review and processing of large quantities of numerical data of which the book is based. Lots of numerical data, like slave prices, crop prices, crop production, etc. I would like to hear your view when you get to it.

Until that time,
Unionblue

[unionblue]

Bill,

Found some interesting quotes and letters from Southerners concerning slavery and slave prices.

It seems that when Confederate prospects for victory appeared brighter during the months after the Emancipation Proclamation, partly because this measure divided the northern people and intensified a morale crisis in the Union armies. Slave prices in the South rose even faster that the rate of inflation during that springtime of Confederate confidence. A number of soldiers wrote home advising relatives to invest in slaves.

The famous 'boy colonel' of the Confederacy, the planter's son Henry Burgwyn, who became colonel of the 26th North Carolina at the age of 21, urged his father in February, 1863, to put every cent he had into slaves. "I would buy boys and girls from 15 to 20 years old and take care to have a majority of girls." he wrote. "The increase in number of your negroes by this means would repay the difference in the amount of available labor...I would not be surprised to see negroes in 6 mos. after peace worth from 2 to 3000 dollars."

Colonel E. Porter Alexander advised his wife three weeks after the battle of Gettysburg, to buy a wet nurse for their twins, for "Carline &amp; her baby wd. be a fine speculation at $2000." Even as late as <u>January, 1865</u>, an officer from low-country South Carolina wrote to his fiancee that "now is the time for Uncle to buy some negro women and children on the principle that if we don't succeed the money won't be worth anything and if we do slaves will be worth a 1000 times more than now."

I still am having a lot of trouble with the idea that slavery was going to 'die out' or go away because people felt badly about it.

Sincerely,
Unionblue