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NO, I am not. Perhaps you should look at the threads again. On the Sherman a Lunatic thread you were given a host of titles, many of which I provided. On several others threads if you look you will find titles referenced even page numbers to reference. Titles & refrences are asked for on this board on an almost daily bassis, and when asked for they are generally given.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Freddy: "Sick individual"? What's sicker about killing someone with a sword as opposed to a gun?
Bloody Kansas was a mess and Brown certainly was part of it. But deeming him somehow unusual for that and ignoring everyone else that spilled blood is grossly unfair.
We are discussing John Brown and his men and no one else.
Facts
John Brown and his men dragged 5 pro-slavery men out of their homes at night in Kansas.
John Brown acted as judge, jury, and executioner even if he did not commit the murders himself.
Unarmed victims were hacked to death with swords which would likey have taken several blows inflicting severe pain and making a bloody and ugly mess.
John Brown and his men were murderers. If they had killed the men in a battle I would understand.
Whatever anyone on the pro-slavery side did does not excuse John Brown for or mitigate his crimes of murder.
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
...
Whatever anyone on the pro-slavery side did does not excuse John Brown for or mitigate his crimes of murder.
Absolutely. I've never thought of him as other than dangerous with only a tenuous thread binding him to sanity. This may be unreasonable, but it's how I thought.
However, whatever John Brown did does not excuse an overseer who whipped a slave to death or mitigate his crimes of murder. These instances are easily found, but sadly only rarely seem to have been prosecuted.
If your intent is to draw attention away from the many by the actions of the one, this also is unreasonable.
We are discussing John Brown and his men and no one else.
Why? Is there some reason the men they were fighting against must be blanked out, for example?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy
Facts
John Brown and his men dragged 5 pro-slavery men out of their homes at night in Kansas.
John Brown acted as judge, jury, and executioner even if he did not commit the murders himself.
Unarmed victims were hacked to death with swords which would likey have taken several blows inflicting severe pain and making a bloody and ugly mess.
John Brown and his men were murderers. If they had killed the men in a battle I would understand.
To them it was battle; people on their side were suffering, their homes and businesses burned out, men killed. Try this 1953 article in the Kansas Historical Quarterly for background: Judge Lecompte and the
"Sack of Lawrence," May 21, 1856 by James C. Malin. http://www.kshs.org/publicat/khq/1953/53_7_malin.htm
Brown and his men heard of the "Sack of Lawrence" on May 22nd. They took these five men and killed them on the night of May 24th. Cause and effect, but it is not so easy to lay blame if you look at all the events.
Quote:
Whatever anyone on the pro-slavery side did does not excuse John Brown for or mitigate his crimes of murder.
Generally speaking, both sides in Kansas had their murderers and terrorists, their propaganda mills and their fanatics. The actions of neither excuses the actions of the other. But accepting that both sides killed and burned puts the actions of each in perpective.
You are willing to agree that the pro-slavery side was following the same general plan of violence, aren't you?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Whatever anyone on the pro-slavery side did does not excuse John Brown for or mitigate his crimes of murder.
Just for everyone's interest, here's a list of documented political killings in Kansas before John Brown led the "
Pottawatomie Massacre" This is from How Bloody Was Bleeding Kansas? by Dale E. Watts http://www.kshs.org/publicat/history...mmer_watts.pdf[/size] The list counts 56 cases from 1855 to 1861.
=====
DOCUMENTED [/size]
POLITICAL KILLINGS
[font=Palatino-Roman][size=2][left]1. Unidentified Negro man.
Killed by a Shawnee Indian.
Before March 24, 1855, on the Shawnee Reserve
(probably Johnson County or Douglas County).
Shot trying to escape from slavery.
2. Malcolm Clark (proslavery).
Killed by Cole McCrea (antislavery).
March 25, 1855, Leavenworth.
Shot during a quarrel at a squatters’
association meeting.
3. Samuel Collins (antislavery).
Killed by Pat Laughlin or — — Lynch (proslavery).
November 29, 1855, Doniphan County.
Shot during a quarrel due to Laughlin’s defection
from the free-state cause.
4. Thomas W. Barber (antislavery).
Killed by George W. Clark or James Burns
(proslavery).
December 6, 1855, Douglas County.
Shot while returning home after the Wakarusa
War at Lawrence.
5. — — Cook (proslavery).
Killed by a party led by R.P. Brown (antislavery).
January 17, 1856, Easton, Leavenworth County.
Shot during a fight concerning an election.
6. R.P. Brown (antislavery).
Killed by Robert Gibson and others (proslavery).
January 17, 1856, Leavenworth County.
Mortally wounded in the head with an ax in
retribution for his involvement in killing Cook.
7. John Jones (antislavery).
Killed by a party of Israel B. Donaldson’s men
(proslavery).
May 4, 1856, Blanton’s Bridge, Douglas County.
Shot as a “****ed abolitionist.”
8. — — Stewart (antislavery).
Killed by — — Cosgrove (proslavery).
May 19, 1856, Douglas County.
Shot while looking for John Jones’ killers.
=====
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Why? Is there some reason the men they were fighting against must be blanked out, for example?
To them it was battle; people on their side were suffering, their homes and businesses burned out, men killed. Try this 1953 article in the Kansas Historical Quarterly for background: Judge Lecompte and the "Sack of Lawrence," May 21, 1856 by James C. Malin. http://www.kshs.org/publicat/khq/1953/53_7_malin.htm
Brown and his men heard of the "Sack of Lawrence" on May 22nd. They took these five men and killed them on the night of May 24th. Cause and effect, but it is not so easy to lay blame if you look at all the events.
Generally speaking, both sides in Kansas had their murderers and terrorists, their propaganda mills and their fanatics. The actions of neither excuses the actions of the other. But accepting that both sides killed and burned puts the actions of each in perpective.
You are willing to agree that the pro-slavery side was following the same general plan of violence, aren't you?
Tim
Of course, murder is murder. Anyone who executed defenseless people of either side committed murder.
Where was the federal government while these raids were being carried out? Were they spread to thin, did they try to stop it, or did they look the other way?
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
Of course, murder is murder. Anyone who executed defenseless people of either side committed murder.
Those listed as having been killed in Kansas sound like they were all beligerants siding with one or another side.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
One book or a thousand, what matters is what you learn from them.
So what is your point?
My point is, many here have supplied sources, books, and reasons to your opinion, which is based on nothing but a couple of one-liners.
Good.
But you can't recommend a book? Pitiful!!
I can and have for others. But I simply won't do your research for you. And you have this habit of saying an opinion based in nothing but a blurb and then sitting back and waiting for someone to produce an answer you agree with.
Must be frustrating to wait for such a long time.
Unionblue
[/quote]
Enjoy your stay,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Of course, murder is murder. Anyone who executed defenseless people of either side committed murder.
Where was the federal government while these raids were being carried out? Were they spread to thin, did they try to stop it, or did they look the other way?
In 1855? The entire US Army was maybe 12,000 men and there were a few US marshalls scattered about. They covered the entire country from coast to coast, fighting Indians, guarding the coast, etc. New regiments were being added that would bring the Army to about 16,000 men.
The new 1st Cavalry regiment saw its first assignment in "Bleeding Kansas" (Col. "Bull" Sumner and Lt. Col. J. E. Johnston, McClellan and Stuart among the junior officers). In addition to trying to police this mess, they fought Commanches and Southern Cheyenne.
Eventually, Federal efforts got this mess under control. The new Governor was Geary, who commanded a Union division at Gettysburg a few years later. But cleaning up and suppressing things like this takes lots of time and lots of effort, with solid support -- and the country was severely split over what to do with Kansas (Brookes was caning Sumner in Congress as Border Ruffians sacked Lawrence and John Brown had those men killed in 1856; it all happened in a few days time.)
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Those listed as having been killed in Kansas sound like they were all beligerants siding with one or another side.
Generally, although there are some apparent innocents included if you look at all 56 on the list. Quite a few get into retaliation: A killed B, so C killed A, then D was killed by someone looking for the killer of A, ...
There are about another 125 violent deaths in Kansas during the period. Some or all of them are claimed to be part of this, but appear to be not caused by politics. For example, two men, one kills the other, both with strong conflicting political views. But neighbors say they never argued about politics before the killing, only about a strip of land between their farms. So was it greed, or stubbornness, or politics?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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