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My information on guards and prisoners getting the same rations comes from my memory. I remember reading it and I remember it getting thrown in my face by other folks who defend Andersonville. I don't believe it, but it is part of the Rebel defense of the place so I mentioned it in my previous post. They (the Rebels) say its not their fault that the Union prisoners starved.
However, knowing you good folks want facts I went on to the internet and after a short search found this link.
Just scroll down to the heading that reads "Rations to Guards and Prisoners the same"
This page contains the writings of a Rebel guard at the prison. Of course he blames everything on the US Government but he makes my point that the Rebels claimed the rations were the same. I wonder how many guards starved or had rickitts. (sp?) If they were getting the same food as the prisoners they should have suffered the same from lack of vegitables and such. I also wonder how many guards looked like live corpses?
This link is a Southern attempt to cover up the horror of Andersonville. Read my great grandfather's diary to see what it was like inside that hell hole. Prisoners' rations were distributed to each Detachment Sergeant for his 90 men. When they were moved to Millen, GA they received double the rations, including meat and vegetables, that were given out at Andersonville. Prisoners lost massive amounts of weight and most came down with scurvy and lost their teeth. Almost 13,000 died there.
It was a law that the Confederacy passed that prisoners were to be given the same rations as Confederate soldiers. That comes from William Marvel's, Andersonville: The Last Depot. If anyone believes that the guards received the same meager rations that the prisoners did you are buying a Rebel lie.
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
Whooffff, Cash. How do you do that? I forgot to mention the colored ingredient in the ultimate refusal to exchange. Thanks everso.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
If anyone believes that the guards received the same meager rations that the prisoners did you are buying a Rebel lie.
With you, I do not buy that the guards received and ate the same crap in the same quantity as the prisoners. I do wish, however, that the myth had not been labelled a Rebel lie.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
You've accepted some misinformation 5fish. Grant didn't eliminate the parole/exchange commission. Can't say he didn't oppose eliminating it or didn't have a role in its demise, but it wasn't his decision.
And yes, the hardest part of camp was the strong preying on the weak. Do you really think that was unique to Andersonville? That sort of thing happened in camps on both sides and is quite evident in today's penitentiaries.
The Union did not wrong Wirz. The populace exacted from him what it has always exacted from whatever scapegoat is nominated to be the receptacle of some years of accumulated anger. Had it not been for Wirz, the attention may well have been on Lee. Or Davis. Somebody had to pay. Wirz got the short straw.
ole
My obvious misinformation must have been a rebel lie. I must have took as fact. (My shame)
Wirz was wrong by the union. He died a noble death for the union wanted him to lie and blame Davis, Lee and other confederate leaders for the shame of Andersonville. He could have lived if he would have only lied; but his honor was more important. He died a noble death to save his southern honor.
We should bring up union prison camps like Douglas in Chicago for it at times had death rates equal to Andersonville.
My obvious misinformation must have been a rebel lie. I must have took as fact. (My shame)
Wirz was wrong by the union. He died a noble death for the union wanted him to lie and blame Davis, Lee and other confederate leaders for the shame of Andersonville. He could have lived if he would have only lied; but his honor was more important. He died a noble death to save his southern honor.
Where did this steaming pile come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5fish
We should bring up union prison camps like Douglas in Chicago for it at times had death rates equal to Andersonville.
Andersonville's overall death rate was 29%. That means there were times when the death rate was much lower and much higher. But overall it was the highest of any Civil War prison.
Cherrypicking carefully selected parts of Camp Douglas' record that would tend to distort the actual picture doesn't seem to me to be helpful.
I read thru the link. And I I've got to admit that while it glosses over alot. Would you expect any less from a former Guard at Andersonville? There are some portions that made sense such as the issuance of corn meal instead of flour.
Much like dueling banjoes, there is no conclusion. The POW got seriously ****ed (violated) in whatever camp he was in. Andersonville (Camp something or other; Sumpter comes to mind) is the one that's gotten the press coverage.
But it does remain, however horrid Camps Douglas and Elmira were, the Confed prisoner had a slightly better chance of surving than did the Yank.
We can blow that off as a Confederate inability to feed its troops, let alone its POWs. It just was what it was.
And Wirz was the last commandant of the most publicized camp. So they hung him. Guilty. Innocent. They hung him. Someone had to hang. Wirz got elected.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Henry Wirz was in charge of a camp that was totally inadequate in food, shelter and sinks for the prisoners assembled.
It was a true sign that the Confederacy was unable to wage war in any humane way. It many times couldn't feed its own soldiers, because of inadequacies in the Confederate logistics system.
Loyal to a failed cause, but no hero.
One need only read the comments of one of the Confederacy's most loyal servents, the War Department clerk J.B. Jones,
Feb 8th [1865]
Intelligence was received today of the sudden death of Brig-Gen Winder in Georgia, from apoplexy, it is supposed. He was in command of the prisons, with his staff of "Plug Uglies" around him and Cashmeyer, their butler.
December 2d [1864]
Col. Chandler, Inspecting Officer, made an ugly report of Gen. Winder's management of the prisoners in Georgia. Brig-Gen Chilton apprends a rebuking endorcement on Gen W's conduct. The inspector characterises Gen W's treatment of the prisoners as barbarous, and their conditions as a "hell on earth."
A few weeks ago I was reading "House of Abraham," by Stephen Berry. It was mostly about the Todd family about whom I've read little previously, and they appear to have been a most unusual and sometimes troublesome bunch.
David Todd (brother-in-law of Lincoln) does not come off well in the book, and was perhaps a bit of a psychopath. He joined up with the Confederates and for a short time was commandant of a prison at Richmond, ultimately relieved of that position when his behavior became so cruel and bizarre that the public would no longer put up with him. Berry tells us:
"The commandant within the gates, David Todd, was a curious choice for such a delicate detail. According to one account, he consistently 'pretend[ed] that the duty [was] irksome & that his martial spirit wearie[d] for the tented field and blood 'galore.'
"His second in command was Sergeant Henry Wirz, later commandant of Andersonville and executed for war crimes. Together the two made a terrifying pair. According to prisoners, Todd took 'personal delight in human blood and suffering,' and Wirz was his ever-willing pupil.'
"'I think Wirz thought that cruelty pleased Todd,' remembered one inmate, 'so he tried to imitate him.'"
"....Though he had served as their commandant for only two months at the very beginning of the war, former inmates of the Richmond prison system singled him out as uniquely nasty. One prisoner testified that Todd 'deserved hanging as richly as did Wirz.' Another corrected him - Todd deserved it more: 'Had Todd been at Andersonville with Wirz's opportunities, he would, I believe have killed more men than his pupil did. Wirz killed to please his superiors; Todd from personal delight in human blood and suffering.'"
While this doesn't definitively explain Wirz's actions at Andersonville, it may give a clue as to how he got his start.
Comments?
__________________ "In leaving this unpretentious record, therefore, I seek to do simply what I would have had my fathers do for me.
KINSMEN OF THE COMING CENTURIES, I BID YOU HAIL AND GODSPEED!"
[From his Introduction to "Memoirs of a Volunteer," by John Beatty - published in 1879
In defending why there were nor barracks he says this:
"The Confederate Government has always been harshly assailed for its want of humanity in not having barracks to house the prisoners from the sun and rains. A more senseless hue and cry was never heard. How was it possible to saw timber into planks without saw-mills? There were two water-power mills distant three and six miles respectively, but such rude primitive affairs undeserving the name. The nearest steam saw-mill was twenty-three miles distant (near Smithville), the next at Reynolds, about fifty miles distant; but the great bulk of lumber used, fully two-thirds, was brought from Gordon, a distance of eighty miles."
As for Wirtz, I don't know alot of the specifics about how he ran the camp, but is it possible he did the best with what he had? (which wasn't very much to begin with). Can all the blame be laid on this one man? Maybe it can, I don't know enough about it.
But then, in the next paragraph, he says this about how the stockade was built:
"The stockade was built by the negroes belonging to the neighboring farms, either hired or pressed into sevice by the Confederate authorities to cut down the immense pine trees growing on the ground intended for the stockade; and these same trees were then cut into proper lengths and hewn on the spot, then planted in a ditch dug four feet deep to receive them. In this manner was the stockade made."
And in the very next paragraph why the sight was chosen:
"The main reasons for locating the prison at Andersonville after its first being thought the most secure place in the Confederacy from the Yankee cavalry raids, was the abundance of water and timber, wherewith to construct the prison rapidly..."
So they need steam power saw mills eighty miles away to build the barracks, but not to build the stockade and the confederate offices and quarters? The negroes belonging to the neighboring farms (i noticed how loudly the absent word "slaves" screamed out here) Could cut the wood for a stockade but not use those same saws to build a rudimentary barracks at least? Somehow these confederates apparently never heard of log cabins. It is clearly an excuse... and not a reason.
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
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