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WWII statistics don't appear to be relevant to me. The germ theory was established by then, medical care was far more advanced, food preservation was more advanced, distribution was better, and the Japanese practiced a systematic cruelty, including outright murder of prisoners.
Just as an example, when WWII ended, the Japanese down in SE Asia/the East Indies had already sent out the orders for the mass murder of some 250,000 POWS. It was felt they needed to free up the troops guarding the prisoners for the pending Allied attack on Singapore, expected at any time. But the A-bombs were dropped, Japan surrendered, and the Japanese flew the Crown Prince down to make sure the orders were not carried out (it would have been embarassing, I suppose).
I like to recall that when I hear talk of how horrible Hiroshima and Nagasaki were. The war in the Pacific was very different, and this is just one example. It would be hard to draw any useful comparison between the two experiences, the Japanese WWII POWs and the Civil War POWs, IMHO.
However, the term "war psychology" was coined to describe the experience of Civil War prisons, both North and South, in a classic 1930 study (Hesseltine, Civil War Prisons: A Study in War Psychology, not to be confused with his later editing of a different book, a collection of essays, called Civil War Prisons). Anyone who really is interested in the issue of POWs and prisons in the Civil War had best start there.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
A confederate soldier had a better chance of surviving as a prisoner of the Yankees than he did in his own army's camp.
The death rates for the major Northern prison camps are:
Alton 11.8%
Camp Chase 8.7%
Camp Douglas 12.4%
Camp Morton 10%
Fort Delaware 7.6%
Johnson's Island 2.7%
Point Lookout 5.6%
Rock Island 15.8%
Elmira 24.3%
Regards,
Cash
It should be noted that Point Lookout received over 16,000 prisoners in the final months of the war (March-April 1865) and all were released by June.
This would significantly skew the mortality rate when comparing to places like Andersonville where prisoners were held for 6-7-8 months.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
I did not have tme to read each post carefully this morning as I am at work. But, what I gather from what I read is that we are getting into a numbers game with some folks trying to justify what happened at Andersonville with what went on at Elmira, Johnsons Island, Camp Douglas etc...
Sorry, but there is no excuse in the world for there being no shelter provided at Andersonville. The place was surrounded by a forrest. There is no reason why barracks could not have been built. I know Elmira had barracks. I also thought I read somewhere that the Rebel prisoners got some clothing from time to time. Being at work I can't look that up so that may not be correct.
To leave those men at Andersonville without some kind shelter is inhuman and there is no excuse.
It is also said that the guards at Andersonville ate the same rations as the prisoners. If so, how come the guards were healthy and the prisoners were not?
I think the powers in the Rebel Govt. could have cared less if the prisoners lived or died. That apathy, started with Gen Winder and worked down the chain of command to Wirz.
A confederate soldier had a better chance of surviving as a prisoner of the Yankees than he did in his own army's camp.
The death rates for the major Northern prison camps are:
Alton 11.8%
Camp Chase 8.7%
Camp Douglas 12.4%
Camp Morton 10%
Fort Delaware 7.6%
Johnson's Island 2.7%
Point Lookout 5.6%
Rock Island 15.8%
Elmira 24.3%
The average death rate in Northern prisons was 11.7% while the average in confederate prisons was about 15.3%
[Averages calculated by Michael Horigan in his book, _Elmira: Death Camp of the North,_ pages 180 and 222]
Using the figures in E. B. Long's _Civil War Day by Day,_ we can calculate the estimated nonbattle death rates for each side:
Nonbattle death rate for Federal troops = 11.0%
Nonbattle death rate for Confederates = 21.9%
So approximately 11.7% of confederates in Northern prisons died, while approximately 21.9% of confederates in southern army camps died.
Regards,
Cash
There was a large influx of Confederate POWs in April 1865 (about 24,000). They were released during May and June -being held for a period of only one or two months.
This would skew the information when making comparisons of Federal and Confederate prisons.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 10-23-2007 at 09:22 AM.
I did not have tme to read each post carefully this morning as I am at work. But, what I gather from what I read is that we are getting into a numbers game with some folks trying to justify what happened at Andersonville with what went on at Elmira, Johnsons Island, Camp Douglas etc...
It was Mr. cash who brought up the subject of 'benign' Northern prisons.
I was just correcting his errors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 27Conn
Sorry, but there is no excuse in the world for there being no shelter provided at Andersonville. The place was surrounded by a forrest. There is no reason why barracks could not have been built. I know Elmira had barracks.
Point Lookout had no barracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 27Conn
It is also said that the guards at Andersonville ate the same rations as the prisoners. If so, how come the guards were healthy and the prisoners were not?
Where do you get your info?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
It was Mr. cash who brought up the subject of 'benign' Northern prisons.
Wrong as usual.
I was showing that a confederate soldier had a better chance of surviving a prison camp than his own army camp. Rather than showing "benign" prison camps, it shows the "nonbenign" army camp.
Avoiding incompetence begins with reading what is written correctly.
Markers are not credible historical sources. Those who rely on them don't know what they're doing.
Regards,
Cash
Cemetery records show about 6000 buried at Confederate Mound. They only had the names of 4200.
Some sources indicate it may be higher than 6000-
"The camp dead were first buried at the prison but then moved to Lincoln Park (it was admitted that some of bones may have been left behind). They were then removed to Oak Woods Cemetary. However, some are in the parking lot of an African-American owned funeral parlor. The owner flew a Confederate flag over his lot until his death in 1996 to honor the men, not the cause, he said. A further 200 are buried in Rosehill Cemetary." http://home.xnet.com/~jkelley/Virtua...akWoods01.html
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
My information on guards and prisoners getting the same rations comes from my memory. I remember reading it and I remember it getting thrown in my face by other folks who defend Andersonville. I don't believe it, but it is part of the Rebel defense of the place so I mentioned it in my previous post. They (the Rebels) say its not their fault that the Union prisoners starved.
However, knowing you good folks want facts I went on to the internet and after a short search found this link.
Just scroll down to the heading that reads "Rations to Guards and Prisoners the same"
This page contains the writings of a Rebel guard at the prison. Of course he blames everything on the US Government but he makes my point that the Rebels claimed the rations were the same. I wonder how many guards starved or had rickitts. (sp?) If they were getting the same food as the prisoners they should have suffered the same from lack of vegitables and such. I also wonder how many guards looked like live corpses?
Cemetery records show about 6000 buried at Confederate Mound. They only had the names of 4200.
Some sources indicate it may be higher than 6000-
"The camp dead were first buried at the prison but then moved to Lincoln Park (it was admitted that some of bones may have been left behind). They were then removed to Oak Woods Cemetary. However, some are in the parking lot of an African-American owned funeral parlor. The owner flew a Confederate flag over his lot until his death in 1996 to honor the men, not the cause, he said. A further 200 are buried in Rosehill Cemetary." http://home.xnet.com/~jkelley/Virtua...akWoods01.html
Real credible source -- not. Find some real history books for a change.
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