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  #31  
Old 11-16-2005, 09:46 PM
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The only reason why you criticize Sherman is because you have a hatred of him. It's just another way to further your agenda.
You have one thing right. I hate Sherman. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could defend him.

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That's what I read and the findings of the court said he intentionally withheld food.
Sir you should read more on the Wirz trial. If you beleive anything in that trial I would bet you would still believe in the tooth fairy.
8thvacav
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  #32  
Old 11-16-2005, 10:18 PM
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8th,

In your post #336 what are post you responding to, I've lost track. A post # or name would be helpful (unless it's just meant to respond to the universe).
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  #33  
Old 11-16-2005, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by nbforrest
Can you provide sources for the claims that some were sent into slavery or that white officers were executed? I would be interested to see some, since I've never come across them before...would be interesting to see the scope, etc.

- At Milliken's Bend: "Attackers cried, 'No quarters for white officers, kill the ****ed Abolitionists, but spare the ******s.' and during the course of the battle they executed at least two white officers." [Joseph T. Glatthaar, Forged in Battle: The Civil War Alliance of Black Soldiers and White Officers, p. 133]

- "Wartime atrocities against the USCT were commonplace, as Confederates first hoped to discourage blacks from enlisting and later sought revenge for their contributions to the Union Army. Initially they were frequent yet isolated incidents. In Louisiana after the Battle of Milliken's Bend a Confederate deserter reported that they had executed an officer and a few enlisted men, and not long afterward some Rebels beat some black troops and hung two others. Similar executions also ocurred in Kansas and North Carolina." [Ibid., pp. 155-156]

- "Southern guerrillas, too, proved to be a problem. Some Confederates and partisans surrounded a foraging party of twenty men from the 51st U.S. Colored Infantry under a lieutenant and forced them to surrender. They then murdered and mutilated teh Federals, shooting the lieutenant through the mouth and leaving him for dead, although he lingered on for another ten days. In Kentucky some guerrillas attacked a guard of ten men from the 108th U.S. Colored Infantry, killed three of them, and then butchered their bodies. Six weeks later in Georgia, guerrillas killed three black troops from the 40th U.S. Colored Infantry and split their heads open with an ax." [Ibid., p. 157]

- "For black outfits, the possibility of execution if they fell into the clutches of the Confederates was an incentive to fight even more aggressively. Nevertheless, sometimes it was a question fo surrendering or being annihilated, and then their officers opted to place their own lives and those of their men in the hands of the Confederate foe.

"Needless to say, black prisoners of war had nowhere to hide, and they were exclusively at the mercy of the Rebels, who sometimes committed atrocities and other times treated them as ordinary prisoners. For their white officers, though, it was not always so obvious whom they commanded, and occasionally they had opportunities to protect themselves when captured in large battles by claiming they served in white units. In a fight in Tennessee in November 1864, two officers from the 44th U.S. Colored Infantry told their captors they served in their original white volunteer regiments and the scheme worked temporarily, but Confederates later executed them." [Ibid., pp. 158-159]

"The actual practice of Confederate forces in the field was considerably less extreme than advocated by the directives spilling out of Richmond. Captured white officers from black regiments were for the most part handled as prisoners of war, though sometimes as second-class ones. Efforts were made to return ex-slave prisoners to their owners, though it remains unclear how often this happened or how many men were affected. Perhaps the most tragic fate awaited free blacks captured in arms, a group that was usually held apart from exchanges." [Noah Andre Trudeau, Like Men of War: Black Troops in the Civil War, 1863-1865, p. 61]

- "The Battle of Poison Spring, April 18, 1864, was one of the most complete victories ever won by Confederate forces in Arkansas. Fewer than four thousand cavalrymen sprang a cleverly laid ambush within the hearing of thirteen thousand Union soldiers in nearby Camden, capturing a large wagon train carrying food for their foes. As the exulting Rebels scattered the train's escort, they refused to take prisoners from its largest unit, the 1st Kansas Colored Volunteer Infantry Regiment. Thus a glorious Confederate triumph was transformed into Arkansas's most notorious war crime." [Gregory J. W. Urwin, "'We Cannot Treat Negroes ... As Prisoners of War': Racial Atrocities and Reprisals in Civil War Arkansas," Civil War History, Vol. 42, No. 3, September, 1996, p. 193]

- Lt. Gen. E. Kirby Smith to Maj. Gen. Richard Taylor: "I have been unofficially informed that some of your troops have captured negroes in arms. I hope this may not be so, and that your subordinates who may have been in command of capturing parties may have recognized the propriety of giving no quarter to armed negroes and their officers." [OR Series II, Vol 6, pp. 21-22]

-"In raids on Pine Bluff and Clarksville, Arkansas, between the fall of 1863 and the spring of 1864, Rebel irregulars shot or hanged captured black soldiers. Confederate guerrillas in Missouri habitually executed any male slaves caught trying to sneak off to Union recruiting stations. In a skirmish south of Lake Providence, Louisiana, on June 29, 1863, a Texas colonel directed his cavalry brigade to charge a fort held by two companies of black infantrymen and to 'take none with uniforms on.'" [Urwin, "We Cannot Treat Negroes ..." op. cit., p. 203]

See also James G. Hollandsworth, Jr., "The Execution of White Officers from Black Units by Confederate Forces During the Civil War," Louisiana History, Vol 35, Fall, 1994, pp. 475-489 and Brainerd Dyer, "The Treatment of Colored Union Troops by the Confederates, 1861-1865," The Journal of Negro History, Vol. 20, No. 3, July, 1935, pp. 273-286.

Regards,
Cash
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  #34  
Old 11-16-2005, 10:59 PM
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Sam,
I don’t know what your talking about. There are only 32 post on this thread. I was responding to Porter.#29
Regards, 8thvacav
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  #35  
Old 11-16-2005, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 8thvacav
Cash, I have to disagree with you on this. Just look at what S.R. 97 says. I know this came up late in the war but by reading that you can see what the North’s mind set was. The North had a plenty to feed the prisoners but instead choose to starve them. “Read Elmira, Death Camp of The North”. Stanton issued orders to cut rations to the prisoners.
I read it. Stanton believed that the rebels were deliberately mistreating Union prisoners in confederate prison camps. They didn't deliberately choose to starve prisoners. They cut the rations given to the prisoners, but not to starvation levels. Like I said, it was tragic human error on both sides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 8thvacav
All though Sherman sent Stoneman to release the prisoners, I really believe Sherman didn’t care about them.
And what do you have to base this belief on other than your hatred of Sherman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8thvacav
They would just slow him down on his pillaging and burning. He had a plenty of troops to send to Andersonville to release the prisoners. After Macon why did he need a big army?
Andersonville was over 100 miles to the southwest, away from his line of march. He already sent one raid that failed. To send another raid would make no military sense at all.

Regards,
Cash
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  #36  
Old 11-16-2005, 11:08 PM
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If you beleive anything in that trial I would bet you would still believe in the tooth fairy.
An ironic statement coming from the president of Lost Cause U.

What evidence do you have showing that Wirz did not intentionally withhold food?

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I don't see how anyone in their right mind could defend him.
I could just as easily ask someone how they could defend a nation created to preserve chattel slavery.
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  #37  
Old 11-16-2005, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 8thvacav
Thats what I mean. There was no reason he couldn't send enough troops to release the Andersonville Prisoners.
Other than the fact it makes no sense at all from a military point of view.


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Originally Posted by 8thvacav
Were did you come up with that. I read just the opposite.
8thvacav
Although this doesn't involve Wirz personally, it is one documented case of civilians bringing food to the prison and being turned away.

"A number of Sumter County citizens began, about this time, to gather up a collection of clothing and provisions to alleviate the suffering of the prisoners inside the stockade. Bedford Head, a local doctor who had briefly tended prison patients rather than serve in the militia, later said his wife had already sent a couple of packages up to the post by one of his slaves when, sometime around the end of August or the first of September, she solicited a substantial contribution from ladies of her acquaintance, with whom she boarded the train for Andersonville with a platoon of servants to carry the food and clothing. Led by Dr. Head and a couple of ministers, the benevolent procession stepped down at Anderson depot and began filling up a wagon sent over by surgeons at the hospital. Certain officers--principally Shelby Reed--inquired why these civilians seemed to be using army transportation, and when Reed learned of their destination he kicked up a profane fuss.

"Dr. Head thought this had all been arranged with General Winder, so he stepped over to Winder's office in the village and asked for a pass. Winder had already heard of Captain Reed's objections, which seemed to revolve around the argument that suffering Confederates deserved first refusal of the goods, and Winder decided to sustain his provost marshal. Head subsequently claimed that he criticized this change of heart, whereupon General Winder flew into a tirade against Yankee sympathizers and swore the provisions would never go to the Federal prisoners." [William Marvel, Andersonville: The Last Depot, p. 193]

Regards,
Cash
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  #38  
Old 11-16-2005, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 8thvacav
You have one thing right. I hate Sherman. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could defend him.
Other than the fact that he alleviated suffering in the long run by shortening the war, that he abided by the rules of warfare, and that neoconfederate claims against him are largely mythology?

Sherman is a hero.

Regards,
Cash
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  #39  
Old 11-17-2005, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
Other than the fact that he alleviated suffering in the long run by shortening the war, that he abided by the rules of warfare, and that neoconfederate claims against him are largely mythology?

Sherman is a hero.

Regards,
Cash
But can you recognize that others can legitimately see Sherman differently?
I mean, in such a judgement a fact based judgement can be made both ways...two people can look at the same sources and judge Sherman differently...see what I mean?


Respectfully
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  #40  
Old 11-17-2005, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by nbforrest
But can you recognize that others can legitimately see Sherman differently?
I can recognize that others can see Sherman differently. Whether it is legitimate or not is a personal opinion. Just kidding on that last one.

The thing is, there is a ton of mythology that has been thrown around Sherman and his Georgia Campaigns, so much so that it's surprising anyone who actually looks at it can believe even half of it. The hatred of Sherman, in my opinion, comes because minds have been poisoned by the mythology and they therefore view all these events through a warped prism, causing them to see only the mythological charges and not see the actual events.

Regards,
Cash
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