Black Confederates

thea_447 · #51 11-14-2003, 11:45 AM

I offer this Neil, for your perusal:

Re: Black Confederates, Racism, and the Confederacy

From: mikegriffith1@cs.com

A reply to Sam Dickson's letter to Mr. Byrd:

Sam,

I'd like to comment on some of your statements to Mr. Byrd:

<>

I don't think you can say this about Dr. Steiner's report. He was the chief inspector of the U.S. Sanitary Commission. He filed a matter-of-fact report that he saw over 3,000 black Confederate troops who were armed and that they were "manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army." Let's read his report again:

"Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. . . . and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

<<lawyers>>

But these arguments won't work in the case of Dr. Steiner's report. This was not a case of a witness seeing a fast-moving and/or traumatic event in a matter of a few seconds. Dr. Steiner had ample time to view the black Confederate soldiers, and his report contains details that are indicative or careful observation.

You suggested Dr. Steiner was drunk when he saw the black Confederate soldiers and that therefore he didn't really see them. I don't think this is a credible argument. Dr. Steiner filed a clear, specific report on what he saw. There is no indication whatsoever that he was drunk when he made his observations. There is no factual basis for speculating that Dr. Steiner was drunk when he saw the black Confederate soldiers, much less for suggesting that he then went on to file a false report based on what he had seen while drunk.

And, just for the sake of argument, let's assume Dr. Steiner was drunk: Is it really credible to suggest that, even in an intoxicated condition, he could have mistaken thousands of white soldiers for thousands of black soldiers? And can someone who is drunk perceive the kind of detail that's contained in Dr. Steiner's report? Frankly, I think the "drunk" explanation is very flimsy and untenable.

<<1.>>

Yankee soldiers and officers had a natural, obvious reason to suppress the existence of black Confederate soldiers. However, there ARE a few Union army reports of black Confederate soldiers. For example, Brigadier General Stuart, a Union general, complained about armed black Confederate soldiers in a battle report:

"Col. Giles Smith commanded the First Brigade and Col. T. Kilby Smith, Fifty-fourth Ohio, the Fourth. I communicated to these officers General Sherman's orders and charged Colonel Smith, Fifty-fourth Ohio, specially with the duty of clearing away the road to the crossing and getting it into the best condition for effecting our crossing that he possibly could. The work was vigorously pressed under his immediate supervision and orders, and he devoted himself to it with as much energy and activity as any living man could employ. It had to be prosecuted under the fire of the enemy's sharpshooters, protected as well as the men might be by our skirmishers on the bank, who were ordered to keep up so vigorous a fire that the enemy should not dare to lift their heads above their rifle-pits; but the enemy, AND ESPECIALLY THEIR ARMED NEGROES, did dare to rise and fire, and did serious execution upon our men. The casualties in the brigade were 11 killed, 40 wounded, and 4 missing; aggregate, 55. Very respectfully, your obedient servant, D. STUART, Brigadier-General, Commanding."

We have photographic evidence from Confederate veterans' meetings of black Confederate veterans attending those meetings. There were black Confederate veterans at the Confederate Soldiers Home in Biloxi, Mississippi, one of whom reported that he was shot by Yankee troops and then forced to work for the Union army. We have Dr. Steiner's report of personally observing some 3,000 black Confederate soldiers in Stonewall Jackson's army, which is not at all surprising because Jackson was beloved by nearly all blacks who ever got to know him.

After the battle of Gettysburg, Union forces took seven black Confederate soldiers as prisoners, as was noted in a Northern newspaper at the time: “…And after the battle of Gettysburg in July 1863, …reported among the rebel prisoners were seven blacks in Confederate uniforms fully armed as soldiers…” (New York Herald, July 11, 1863).

The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at First Manassas. They operated battery number two. John Parker, a former slave, recorded that "many colored people were killed in the action."

None other than black abolitionist Frederick Douglass complained, “There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the . . . rebels.” If Douglass, of all people, had had any doubt about the veracity of the information on which he based this statement, surely he would not have made the statement.

<<2.>>

This is neither hard nor overwhelming evidence. Blacks served in non-combat roles for the Confederate army from the outset, in very large numbers. There are accounts of some of them volunteering to bear arms for the Confederacy. Many Southern blacks felt patriotism for the Confederacy. For example, one group of free blacks in Louisiana wrote a letter to a local newspaper expressing their opposition to the North and their love for the South. From the above-mentioned accounts, and from others that could be cited, it is apparent that some Confederate forces permitted blacks to take up arms against the enemy.

It's interesting to note that the state of South Carolina recorded 30 black Confederates pensioners in one county alone (York County), and that Tennessee recorded 267 blacks receiving Confederate pensions.

Finally, I would note that many Confederate officers and soldiers supported allowing blacks to serve as soldiers. For instance, nearly 400 officers and enlisted men from the 2nd, 7th, and 11th Kentucky Cavalry signed a petition asking the Confederate Congress to approve the policy of using Negroes as soldiers. And numerous officers from the Army of Tennessee, including Patrick Cleburne, endorsed a letter calling for enlisting blacks as soldiers AND for granting them their freedom upon completion of service. Given these facts, it shouldn't be hard to believe that some Confederate officers took matters into their own hands and permitted blacks to take up arms in the Confederate army.

Mike Griffith
Civil War website
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id163.htm
http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/g...harticles2.htm

I have never ranted or raved, Shane, about the South rising again. The South has no need to, because it has not fallen. We lost a war against overwhelming odds. What the South stood for, States Rights, is still uppermost in my, and other Southerners minds. You can continue with your "Lost Cause" theory for as long as your heart desires. I have never considered my heritage, my love of the South a Lost Cause and I never will. I'm sure you believe that all Southerners want a return to slavery, plantations, yadda, yadda, yadda.(You forget that this war was fought by farmers.) I can assure you that is not the case.

But as far as smaller government, less federal interference in states' rights, issues which are dear to my heart, I will defend until my death.

You and I will never see things the same way on any issue involving the WBTS. That's as it should be. But I would hope that we can continue to at least be "civil".

By the way,you made an earlier remark to Tommy about flags. I fly flags, not because of disgust with my country, but to honor my ancestors. I fly my state flag, my husband's state flag and the US flag. I fly the state flags on our arbor, totally separate from the US flag so there is no dishonor involved. I'm quite sure that everyone who writes on these boards is aware of flag etiquette. I live in the South and have Never seen a Confederate flag flown higher than the US flag. We Know our history down here.

Until we meet again,

(Message edited by thea_447 on November 14, 2003)

thea_447 · #52 11-14-2003, 04:00 PM

Try this site: http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/colour.html

thea_447 · #53 11-14-2003, 04:02 PM

BLACK CONFEDERATES, RACISM, and the CONFEDERACY.
By LeBateman@NetZero.Net

"The article Black Confederates, racism, and the Confederacy is a GREAT article. There are several noted historians that once quoted this report Mr. Griffith makes reference to.
Ed Smith, Historian at The Smithsonian, and Educator at American University in Washington D.C. gave a lecture in the 1970s, to the Civil War Round Table in Washington D.C. His lecture was called Calico, Gray, and Black. The work of Women, and Blacks in the Confederacy. He sited Dr. Lewis Steiner's Report, as did Captain Isaak Heysinger in his book Antietam: Maryland and Virginia Campaign of 1862. You can find this report on pp122, 123 published in 1912. H. B. Blackerby's Black's in Blue and Gray: African-American Service in the Civil War Portal Press University of Alabama also sites Capt Heysinger's report on Dr. Steiner.
..."I also used Dr. Steiner's report as a site for a research paper I did at Auburn University of Montgomery. I did not blame the war on slavery, so my instructor who hailed from the FREE STATE OF WINSTON gave me a C+. He also conveniently misplaced an essay plus debate cards which would have given me an A+. I turned in about 10 items, which were 10 points apiece. But anyway, I was reminded of this when I saw this article. A newspaper the Indianapolis Star published a letter from an Indiana soldier about his regiment being attacked by a regiment of armed blacks, at New Market Bridge Virginia, the letter was published in the New York Tribune 31 Dec 1861. The title was ARMED NEGROES ATTACK OUR MEN. I printed the words verbatim, but Dr. Dodd the Winstonian checked off in red, yet he told me he was not checking it against me. The term Negro may be offensive today, but these were not my words. I got an 85 on the paper. That is another one I should have aced.
Certain people like Mike Grissom refuse to believe these men actually fought. I have not checked Rick Rollins Essay's on African-Americans in the Southern Army. This was a Volume in the Series: Journal of Confederate History Vol. IV I think. Also Commander Charles Barrow Kelly has two books out and one forth coming on Black Confederates. My research paper was titled Black Confederates: Forgotten Heroes. I did it in 1990. Seems like a century ago. Great Job Mike.

Le Bateman
Deo Vindice

johan_steele · #54 11-14-2003, 07:09 PM

"By the way,you made an earlier remark to Tommy about flags. I fly flags, not because of disgust with my country, but to honor my ancestors. I fly my state flag, my husband's state flag and the US flag. I fly the state flags on our arbor, totally separate from the US flag so there is no dishonor involved. I'm quite sure that everyone who writes on these boards is aware of flag etiquette. I live in the South and have Never seen a Confederate flag flown higher than the US flag. We Know our history down here."

Thank You Thea... I remember often seeing CSA battle flags flown over the US flag while I lived in SC... I also remember seeing them displayed such in NC & in Biloxi quite frequently. I also remember how well servicemen were treated... I'd sure like to know where that famous southern hospitality went. Your respect for our flag is noted & appreciated. I don't believe all Southertners want a return to the "good old days of the CSA" Thank God, unfortunetly those who do often cloak their hate of the US, racism etc in "historical accuracy." History like anything can be used as a weapon.

I know quite well that the average Confederate who died for the CSA didn't own slaves... but most of those who started the war did and continued to throw young southern farmers into battle when all was lost...

The war wasn't won by superior numbers or bravery or anything so simple... the war was won by the least incompetant army.

unionblue · #55 11-15-2003, 12:52 AM

Thea,

Your posting addressed to me dated November 14, 2003 - 11:45 am is not a problem with me. I agree there were blacks who fought as soldiers, in the infantry, who were armed. Just not in the numbers that some would like us to believe.

Even in your source by Mike Griffith, he states, "This is neither hard nor overwhelming evidence."

I have no trouble with the report of '3,000 armed blacks' seen before the battle of Gettysburg, nor with the numerous reports and articles listed by your source. Combat with armed black soldiers fighting for the South did happen. I have no problem with Fredrick Douglass's comments on blacks serving with rebel forces. But even he seems to lump the majority of them as support forces, not combat. I have no trouble with the figures quoted aboue in your post that state 16,000 blacks were fighting in the ranks as soldiers, while about 60,000 were in a support role. I was agreeing with you, in case you are not used to the idea.

My only contention is with the fact that Southern blacks fought with rebel forces as soldiers in the war in large, unproven, numbers. I just contend it was not a large force nor are there any indications it was in the high range of 90,000 black soldiers fighting in the ranks as claimed by some in articles and various web sites.

YMOS,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on November 15, 2003)

thea_447 · #56 11-25-2003, 10:13 AM

Startled at first, amazement on her face, Thea rises slowly and salutes the First Sergeant. Thank you. All I have ever wanted was to be able to say that blacks did indeed serve in the CSA. Although I will stick with the 16,000 soldier figure. For that matter, can we know precisely how many blacks actually served as SOLDIERS, not cooks, valets, etc. in the Union Army?

I question whether 90,000 actually served as soldiers in the CSA, but: 1. They did serve in some capacity, and 2.The fact remains that you and I can AGREE on some things!

Let the word go out! A Yankee (if often postal) First Sergeant and one stubborn Southern lady met on a field of honor and didn't kill each other!

Perhaps we can agree on a few other things in the future, Neil, but I must warn you, McDonald's holds NO appeal for me.

This is far off the subject too, but I don't know where to put it. If you think it should be in a more appropriate thread, feel free to move it.

http://www.historynet.com/acw/blchickamauga/index1.html

thea_447 · #57 12-03-2003, 11:42 AM

Black Southerners in general served in support roles because the whites felt it was a war they started and was their responsiibility to fight, that it was unfair to ask Black Southerners to fight on their behalf.

There was not originally wholesale enlistment of Black Southerners into the military because they served a greater function of supporting the production of food, cotton, rice, and other exports. Without their continued service the South could not have lasted as long as it did in combat.

That they remained loyal and were recognized for that loyalty is easily proven:

http://www.37thtexas.org/html/Memoriam.html

That Black Southerners served in the Confederate military and were then and later honored for their personal character is also easily proven:

http://www.37thtexas.org/html/Memoriam3.html

Also on this topic, concerning Nathan Bedford Forrest:

Forty-five of Forrest's own slaves, indeed served through the war with him as teamsters. "I said to forty-five colored fellows on my plantation," Forrest told a Congressional committee after the war, "that I was going into the army; and that if they would go with me, if we got whipped they would be free anyhow, and that if we succeeded and slavery was perpetuated, if they would act faithfully with me to the end of the war, I would set them free." "Eighteen months before the war closed I was satisfied that we were going to be defeated, and I gave those forty-five men, or forty-four of them, their free papers, for fear I might get killed." ( "First With the Most: Forrest" by Robert Selph Henry, Indianapolis, IN: Bobbs-Merrill, 1944, page 14).

The words of Irish-born Confederate Major General Patrick Cleburne from his January, 1864, letter which proposed the emancipation and enlistment of Black Southerners into the Confederate Army possess great irony:

"Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late.•••• means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision.•••••• is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties."

johan_steele · #58 12-03-2003, 05:40 PM

Thea, I would suggest the number of Blacks serving the CSA was considerably more than 90,000 in a support capacity... every slave that picked cotton, repaired a railroad etc was serving the CSA and supporting it and many of them directly and their labors went straight to the CSA military. They deserve respect and maybe even thanks for their efforts... they've never really received it. Slave labor supported the CSA for four years...

There is no doubt that some Black men served the CSA in a combatant role but the number is rather insignificant... frankly I don't think it was a much higher number than of the womeon who dressed up as men so they could fight. The largest group of Armed Black Men (that saw combat) I have seen evidence of were the two companies w/ Lee at Appomotax. Aphillbilly mentioned the TN Brigade I believe... I can find no evidence they were ever even armed or uniformed much less took part in battle. The 1st LA Native Guards were never armed and never served in a combat role... until they joined the Union Army.

Do you happen to have the refereence handy for the Cleburne quote? I've read it before but I can't lay my hands on it or recall where. Cleburne was arguebly the finest general in the CSA and certainly an underrated general by the CSA. Ironically, the highest praise I've read of him comes from Union Generals who fought him...

There are 186 "Colored" organizations listed for the US Army, this does not include the State "Colored Regiments." That puts the numbers at well over 190,000... I don't think the Union Army needed that many valets or cooks. USCT units proved themselves in battle at numerous occasions. They fought and died for a cause they believed in. They were paid less than their white counterparts and showed considerably less respect... though their are some serious exceptions to the respect comment. Quite a few black men won the CMH or were otherwise praised in various dispatches. Something that is lacking inh the CSA records... I've yet to even find a single reference to black troops serving under the CSA banner in battle in official Confederate dispatches. W/ the exception of NB Forrest, a man far underrated as was Cleburne I have never read a biography of a Major CSA commander praising black troops... even the credit for the mamouth effort that went into the defenses of Atlanta, Vicksburg & Petersburg is placed on the white engineers who designed them and not on the men who dug them... often working round the clock to construct those defenses.

unionblue · #59 11-01-2007, 04:12 AM

To All,

Found this article on the web. Thought it should be posted here.

The Black Lost Cause: Colored Service in the Confederate Army, by Peter Stam.

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/E/blacklostcause/blcxx.htm

Unionblue

johan_steele · #60 11-01-2007, 08:06 AM

Nice link, informative and intelligently written. Thank You