Black Confederates

Shane,

I would like you to know that indeed I could care less if the South had won. It is a moot point. Don't think you can label or pigeon-hole me. You don't know me. Don't presume to. Yes, I think they should have been allowed to secede without being murdered for it. Once the fight was on and they were defending their homes, you bet I wish they had succeeded. Why shouldn’t I? As to my disgust with America...I thought I had that right. I thought it was my duty. Although I am sure there are plenty would like for to there to be thought police it has not happened yet. Or did I not get your memo we were now a perfect fascist state?

Show me where Cleburne was censured. Show me. I want an original source. Show me and I will gladly humble myself and concede he was censured. I am not talking your's or an author’s conclusion based on his or your opinion.

I do not think you have a very good idea of the Army of Tennessee's problems in it's command. Between Walker, Hindman, Johnston and Bragg and a half dozen others they were fighting each other more than the Union. Bragg poisoned that army. You did not need to raise the issue of slavery not to get promoted. The fact is Cleburne was in the doghouse under Bragg, long before any issue of using and freeing slaves come up with Johnston. Bragg was responsible for Hood replacing Johnston. It was Bragg kept Cleburne from being promoted not the issue of slavery.

As for being impressed with my veracity I have yet to see you produce a source. If you will look through my many posts in various threads you will see I try to use original sources to back up what I say. Yet even so, you are entitled to your opinion. But until you start using sources, it stays an opinion. A really narrow one at that.

As to using the amount of slaves that joined Sherman as proof that blacks didn't fight for the South. It has nothing to do with how many stayed with the south does it? If so how? There were millions of slaves. By your logic, since many white southerners fought for the north, then must not have been any whites fought for the South either. Makes no sense.

You ever hear of the 1st Native Guard of Tennessee? 3000 Black Confederate Soldiers...in 1862? The State of Tennessee became the first southern state to legislate the use of free Blacks as soldiers in June, 1861.

The Louisiana Native Guards of course.

Alfred Bellard, a white soldier of the 5th NJ Infantry, reported in his memoirs the shooting of two black Confederate snipers by member’s of the Berdan’s Sharpshooters in April of 1862.

“One of the Negro Confederates was only wounded, but the other was killed one afternoon after leaving the security of a hollow tree (probably to relieve himself). Two Confederates tried to get to his body but were driven away by the Union gunfire”

"…And after the battle of Gettysburg in July 1863, …reported among the rebel prisoners were seven blacks in Confederate uniforms fully armed as soldiers…"
-New York Herald, July 11, 1863.

On December 22, 1862, 700 armed Black graycoats attacked New York soldiers near New Market Bridge, VA; on February 9, 1862

Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, Bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."


The Jackson Battalion included two companies of black soldiers. They saw combat at Petersburg under Colonel Shipp.

"There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels."

I guess the last statement was lacking in veracity as well and just my opinion...even though it is my opinion, based on facts... But it happened that Frederick Douglas was the one said it. I guess
he made it clear in many writings of his disgust w/ America, his wish that the C.S.A. would have won and the Union crushed. So I guess you are less than impressed with his veracity as well as mine.

A lie exposed? So you are calling me a liar? Interesting choice of word. Very interesting.

[johan_steele]

Wiley Sword in "Mountains Touched by Fire" does an outstanding job of showing the problems w/in the AoT between Bragg and those who saw him as a worthless leader. Maybe you should read it... I admit to not being aware of exactly how damaging it was to the AoT until reading the book. Rather eye opening.

1st Native Guards of TN... where did they fight? I don't recall that they ever saw combat... or were armed. Where did you get the number of 3000? That's pretty impressive, what percentage of CSA troops from TN would that be? Who were there officers? La Native guards were disarmed and never saw action for the CSA... they became the first black troops from La in Union service, however.

You mention seven more black men in CSA uniform as POW's after Gettysburg... do you happen to know what Regiment they served w/? I don't doubt their existance. But seven, if your reasoning is used then by the evidence of three women found out in the AoT during the Chatanooga Campaign there must have been THOUSANDS!

I think I've made it quite clear that I have no doubt that there were indeed Black men who bore arms for the CSA I just don't believe the inflated numbers. I don't understand the insistance that there were so many... Unless it's something as simple as an attempt to point out all the Black Men who defended the CSA as a way of saying "See they were happy w/ the institution of Slavery and were even willing to fight to defend it." Sounds a bit... suspicious to me.

You mention Dec 22nd 1862... The only battle listed in the statistical record for that day is "Isle of Wight Court House, VA" Detachment of 2nd NY Mounted Rifles. If you were referencing Feb 9th of '62 no engagements were listed for that day.

As to quoting sources... you chide me for not doing so then fail to do so yourself. Interesting. I don't bother to do so as this is a site for enjoyment, not school. If you want some sources? All of the Campaigns of the Civil War series & All for Union were written by men on the sharp end, men who were there. For some reason I think they might mention seeing masses of Black Confederates. Here:

Wert, Jeffry D., A Brotherhood of Valor: the Common Soldiers of the Stonewall Brigade, C.S.A., and the Iron Brigade, U.S.A., Simon & Schuster, 1999.

Wiley, Bell Irvin, The Life of Billy Yank, Louisiana State University Press, 1978.

Wiley, Bell Irvin, The Life of Johnny Reb, Louisiana State University Press, 1978.

Sword, Wiley, Sharpshooter: Hiram Berdan, his famous Sharpshooters and their Sharps Rifles, Andrew Mowbray Inc., 1988.

Phisterer, Frederick, Campaigns of the Civil War Supplementary Volume Statistical Record of the Armies of the United States, Castle Books, 2002.

Rhodes, Elisha Hunt, All for the Union, Orion Books, 1985.

Katcher, Philip, Sharpshooters of the American Civil War 1861-65, Osprey Publishing, 2002.

Johnson, Mark W. That Body of Brave Men, Da Capo Press, 2003.

Greene Francis V., Campaigns of the Civil War.-VIII. The Mississippi, Castle Books, 2002.

Cox, Jacob D., Campaigns of the Civil War.-IX. Atlanta, Castle Books, 2002.

Cox, Jacob D., Campaigns of the Civil War.-X. The March to the Sea-Franklin and Nashville, Castle Books, 2002.

Cist, Henry M., Campaigns of the Civil War.-VII. The Army of the Cumberland, Castle Books, 2002.

As it is I bid you a good day.

“I said to 45 colored fellows on my plantation that I was going into the army; and if they would go with me, if we got whipped they would be free anyhow, and that if we succeeded and slavery was perpetrated, if they would act faithfully with me to the end of the war, I would set them free. Eighteen months before the war closed I was satisfied that we were going to be defeated, and I gave those 45, or 44 of them, their free papers for fear I might be called.”
N.B. Forrest

."... these boys stayed with me ...and better Confederates did not live”
N.B. Forrest

“The forces attacking my camp were the First Regiment Texas Rangers, a battalion of the First Georgia Rangers …… and quite a number of Negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped, and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day" (Lieutenant Colonel Parkhurst's Report (Ninth Michigan Infantry) on General Forrest's attack at Murfreesboro, Tennessee, July 13, 1862, in Official Records, Series I, Vol XVI, Part I, page 805).

For more than two years, Negroes had been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They had been embodied and drilled as rebel soldiers and had paraded with white troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union.
Horace Greeley

“On December 22, 1862, 700 armed Black graycoats attacked New York soldiers near New Market Bridge, VA; on February 9, 1862 “
That was from the New York Times reprinting a letter from soldier. Sorry

““A body of seven hundred Negro infantry opened fire on our men, wounding two lieutenants and two privates. The wounded men testify positively that they were shot by Negroes, and that not less than seven hundred were present, armed with muskets. This is, indeed, a new feature of the war. We have heard of a regiment of Negroes at Manassas, and another at Memphis, and still another at New Orleans, but did not believe it till it came so near home and attacked our men.””


You will no more believe there were blacks fighting for or willing to fight for the South than you are willing to believe Sherman did the damage but it was instead, Confederates themselves. Or if it did happen it was such an anomaly that you are prepared to argue to the death over it. It’s funny really. But is also shows the utter futility of discussing anything with you that you don’t already agree with. You just call me a liar.

As to your thinking it sounds a bit suspicious....well....the first monument honoring black soldier in the nation’s capital was a Confederate Memorial wasn't it. Made by a man I'd think would know a little about racial discrimination. Suddenly now, there is a big push on to say it never happened contrary to period evidence. To attempt to diminish what they did is an insult. And they DID fight. They were even more willing to fight. To say "oh yes they dug ditches so yes they deserve respect but only couple fought" insults those who did. Simple as that.

Still waiting on that original source proving Cleburne was censured. Or any of the 13 officers who signed his proposal.

(Message edited by aphillbilly on November 09, 2003)

[thea_447]

http://www.rebelgray.com/BlackSoldiers.htm

http://www.civilwarhome.com/blacks.htm
http://www.mindspring.com/~redeagle/.../CSAblacks.htm

http://www.tennessee-scv.org/Forrest...federates.html
http://members.tripod.com/~GA60th/links.html --
"On Black Confederates" from the 34th Texas Cavalry webpage
"Blacks who fought for the South" Article by Walter Williams

Black Confederate Heritage by the Sons of Confederate Veterans

"Forgotten Soldiers of the Confederacy" by Kim A. O'Connell

The Confederate Private Website-'Black Confederate Soldiers'

Forgotten Confederates, An Anthology on Black Southerners

Black Confederates and Afro-yankees in Civil War Virginia

[johan_steele]

Thea, thanks for the sites & books... I'll take a look at them and try to view them w/ an open mind. Do you know what publication I might get a hold oof the article by Walter Williams?

Aphillbilly, The Campaigns Series were all written prior to 1880 by men who had fought there. The current series are reprints.

Again: I think I've made it quite clear that I have no doubt that there were indeed Black men who bore arms for the CSA I just don't believe the inflated numbers. I don't understand the insistance that there were so many... Unless it's something as simple as an attempt to point out all the Black Men who defended the CSA as a way of saying "See they were happy w/ the institution of Slavery and were even willing to fight to defend it." As I've said a lie repeated often enough becomes not a lie, maybe just a slight exaggeration. My guess, supported by the evidence I've seen, 12-1300 black men at any one time... where in the hell do the numbers of "200,000, tens of thousands, etc." come from? I don't blame people for being willing to credit the number 13,000 after the flood of flat out poor or out right false data... but the next time when the plethra of numbers come flying in what will the number be?

I've said it before I'll say it again. Yes, Shermans men did some serious depradations... but I've seen so many claims over the years that I started to wonder 'just how much could they have done?' I've come to the conclusion that many of the claims are wrong as to placing the blame. Arguing the point w/ you.... oooookkkkk NOT! If you are going to point out that all I use is opinion, fair enough. But I'll take my opinions based on those of respected soldiers & authors like Henry Cist, Jacob Cox, Frederick Phisterer, Mark Johnson Wiley Sword, Jeffery Wert & Bell Wiley. The first three actually fought in the Civil War, the others mentioned are respected authors and researchers.

You seem fixated on my mention of Cleburne being blacklisted... I've given you info of where I got the opinion. Now it's your turn.

You quoted a NY Times story... I quoted the Statistical Record... I'm more inclined to believe the Statistical Record. Honesty & Integrity have never been the hallmark of the NY Times.

THanks for the NB Forrest info, I had misplaced the information & can use it on another board where I've been hammered for saying he received quite a bit of bad press. Gee! I suppose it is possible for me to learn something and to change my views. WHEN I'VE SEEN CREDIBLE EVIDENCE!

[thea_447]

I believe we can all get our points across, Shane, without shouting. Please reserve your caps for bold print or extra emphasis. I'm sure by now all the Southerners on this board know exactly how you feel.

"I think it represents a hole in our education," says Walter E. Williams, chairman of the economics department at Virginia's George Mason University and a nationally syndicated columnist who writes frequently on race and politics. He blames "political opportunism" for the crusade against Confederate remembrance.

"People are associating the War Between the States as solely motivated by slavery," says Mr. Williams, a black scholar who argues that the 1861-1865 conflict "was more of a states' rights issue than a slavery issue."

The article which appeared several years ago in the Washington Times by Walter Williams: http://rebelman.00home.com/whats_new.html

[thea_447]

Black Confederate heritage is beginning to receive the attention it deserves. For instance, Terri Williams, a black journalist for the Suffolk "Virginia Pilot" newspaper, writes: "I've had to re-examine my feelings toward the [Confederate] flag started when I read a newspaper article about an elderly black man whose ancestor worked with the Confederate forces. The man spoke with pride about his family member's contribution to the cause, was photographed with the [Confederate] flag draped over his lap that's why I now have no definite stand on just what the flag symbolizes, because it no longer is their history, or my history, but our history."

Some other source material:

Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made (823 pp.), by Eugene D. Genovese. It is chock-full of information and sympathetic to both blacks and whites. See also Black Confederates (formerly titled Forgotten Confederates) as well as Black Southerners in Confederate Armies, both edited by Charles K. Barrows, J.H. Segards and E. B. Rosenberg, and Booker T. Washington’s Up From Slavery, Destruction and Reconstruction by Gen. Richard Taylor

[thea_447]

The Post & Courier, Charleston, South Carolina
Monuments honor the blacks who wore gray
Lisa Hofbauer, Staff Writer - Published February 2, 1997
(Copyright 1997 - Reprinted with permission)

Agnes Corbett always knew that her hometown of Camden (South Carolina) had once had its share of Confederate soldiers. What she didn't know was that some of them were black.

Corbett, the director of the Camden Archives, learned about the town's African American veterans when her organization decided to survey the names of everyone who fought in the Civil War. When she learned of a tombstone at an African American church that had a Confederate States of America seal on it, she was amazed.

"That is a part of our history that has not been brought to the surface. Nobody has researched it." Corbett said, "We didn't even know about it until we did the survey."

Memorials to African-Americans who served in the Confederacy are rare, but not unheard of. Though the debate rages on about the Confederate battle flag atop the statehouse in Columbia and the Confederate monument in Walterboro, many people haven't learned about the role that southern African-Americans played in the Civil War.

At least two black Confederate monuments exist in South Carolina, and several others can be found in other states.

One monument in Darlington is dedicated to Henry Dad Brown, a drummer for the Confederate troops who, according to Darlington resident and historian Horace Rudisel, was not allowed to carry a firearm because of his race. Brown was able to draw a Confederate pension after the war, however, and was said to be highly respected in town because he had served. The monument was erected shortly after Brown's death in 1907.

Rudisel said that the monument used to be kept up by local black teachers until the county offered to maintain it.

Darlington County also had 10 to 20 other black men who were body servants, or valets, to soldiers and who also drew CSA pensions. The Darlington Historical Society is trying to determine the burial sites of those men so they can erect a monument honoring them.

Another African-American Confederate monument was erected in 1895 in Fort Mill (South Carolina). That monument is dedicated to the Confederate slaves who helped protect and defend the women and children left alone during the war.

The granite obelisk has carvings of African-Americans on its sides along with the names of roughly 15 slaves. Two other monuments, one dedicated to the women and children and a third for the Catawba Indians who fought for the Confederacy, stand on the same site.

William J. Bradford, the unofficial but widely respected town historian and former editor of the Fort Mill Times, said that even locally it has been underappreciated. Since the monument belongs to the people of Fort Mill and not the county, funds aren't available to keep it in top condition.

"We have always felt that it should receive more attention than it has," Bradford said. "It hasn't been vandalized, but it hasn't been kept up. None of them have been preserved as they should have been."

A monument that honors a black Confederate soldier killed in battle also exists in Canton, Mississippi.

Efforts to bring to light the African-American's role in the Civil War continue - and from some unlikely sources. Several chapters of the Sons of Confederate Veterans are trying to identify blacks who fought in the war. Terrell's Texas Cavalry, 34th Regiment, a Confederate reenactment group with members in several states, is raising funds for a monument to Confederate soldiers of color. They plan to erect the monument in Richmond, Virginia, where the White House of the Confederacy still stands.

According to John Danylchuk, captain of the 34th Texas Cavalry unit in Killeen, Texas, some reenactors have trouble believing that there were black and Hispanic soldiers in the Confederate Army.

Danylchuk recalled one incident in which his unit was asked to reenact a battle for a television miniseries. After he and two other men - one of whom was black - went to meet with the casting director, Danylchuk got a strange phone call.

"(The director) said, 'Yeah, we'd like to have all you guys - but not the black guy,'" Danylchuk recalled.

When asked if he knew why that happened, he said, "I know why. They don't want to see black people wearing gray."

Many historians agree that African-Americans did play a role in the Confederate Army. According to the Appomattox Courthouse National Historic Site, 36 black Confederates were among those who surrendered to the Union army at Appomattox Courthouse in Virginia on April 9, 1865. Most were teamsters, guards, cooks or musicians.

Historians estimate the total number of black men who sided with the Confederates either as laborers or soldiers range anywhere from 60,000 to 90,000.

James Eaton, a professor at Florida A&M University who studied black Confederates, explained why those men might have joined the cause. He said that one reason many of them did so because they were afraid their live would be more difficult if they didn't.

"Some of them were promised their freedom if they fought. Others went out of loyalty for their masters, and stayed with them in times of trouble." Eaton said.

"Black men did fight on both sides," he continued. "There's been a whole lot of credible work done about the side of the Union, but they have not given any scholarly research to the Confederate side."

[thea_447]

The Mississippi Press
Black Confederates gaining recognition

By Regina Hines, West Jackson County Bureau Chief
(Reprinted with permission)
(May be reprinted with source and byline)

OCEAN SPRINGS -- A monument was dedicated last year in Washington, D.C., to the memory of the African-Americans who fought in Union service during the Civil War.

Since then, a local freelance writer has become involved in an effort to erect a similar monument to the thousands of blacks who served the Confederacy.

"It's hidden history," Michael Kelley of Pascagoula said. His research shows there were more than 65,000 blacks, 15,000 Hispanics and 3,000 Native Americans among the Confederate troops. But little recognition is given to these facts, he said.

"I've talked to a lot of black Mississippians," he said. "Most know of black Confederate service and I have not talked to one who is not proud of it and they are angry that it is not recognized."

Kelley, who is white, has heard stories about his ancestors' lives in Civil War Virginia since childhood.' "I was raised in the Old Southern tradition. A person's color meant nothing, you took everyone as an individual," he said.

A syndicated newspaper column he read last year strengthened the Civil War stories he had heard. The author, Walter E. Williams, an economics professor at George Mason University, wrote about "... numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg."

"They were not all necessarily in combat. They were hospital stewards, runners and longshoremen also," Kelley said.

"We're not just talking about servants and slaves; we're talking about friends and, in some cases, relatives. They were not segregated like Northern troops."

He has uncovered stories of officers who had brought their servants with them when they enlisted. When one major was wounded, his young servant, a freeman, brought the officer home before returning to the battle.

In another case, a young Confederate captain was killed at Gettysburg. His servant sold the officer's equipment to buy a buggy and carried the body for 600 miles so that the youth's parents could bury him. "Then he returned to combat," Kelley said of the servant. "He could have just walked away."

"It was honorable service. They were fighting for what they believed in. They were fighting for their homes and people," Kelley said.

For some black veterans, it was difficult to prove Confederate service because many records that mention them were destroyed. But thousands received Confederate pensions upon the statements of their commanding officers.

"It is very honorable of Mr. Kelley to do this and we would assist him and encourage him," Aniece Liddell, president of the Jackson County NAACP, said. "History books do not tell the whole story and we're just hearing about this."

She said the reason that February is set aside as Black History Month is to bring out these forgotten stories. "Books are being rewritten now and these stories are now being told."

While searching the Internet, Kelley learned about a racially-mixed Civil War re-enactors group based in Austin, Texas, - Terrell's Texas Cavalry 34th Regiment, CSA. Kelley has since become the unit's second lieutenant and commander of the dismounted unit.

One of the goals of the unit is to educate others about the multi-racial makeup of the Confederate Armed Forces through authentic re-enactment.

Terrell's Texas Cavalry was ordered into service in June 1863 under the command of Lt. Col. Alexander Watkins Terrell. "Unit rosters showed the 34th to be of multi-racial makeup including white, black, brown and red men," he said.

They plan in the future to launch a design competition for a monument dedicated to the black Confederates and push for the sculpture to be located on Richmond's Monument Avenue.

"I think it's a fine idea," Sons of Confederate Veterans officer Keith Hardison said. "It's a role many people do not know anything about and others choose to ignore it."

Hardison is curator of the Beauvoir Shrine and serves as adjutant in chief of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV). Hardison said the concept of a national monument was discussed recently by Ed Smith, a professor at American University in Washington, D.C., who spoke to SCV members at the Lee-Jackson Banquet.

Various state and local monuments have been erected on this theme and one of the panels of the Confederate Monument at Arlington National Cemetery features a black soldier, he said. The Harvey Scout Monument in Canton, Miss., is also dedicated to the memory of an African-American Confederate soldier.

Hardison said records of the last reunion of the United Confederate Veterans held in 1930 at the White House Hotel in Biloxi show that several African-American veterans attended.

The ancestry of members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans represents a cross section of America in most states, he said. Those of Native American, Hispanic and European descent are members along with Anglo-Americans, Hardison said.

Kelley said this ethnic diversity is part of Southern history and will be a facet which will be emphasized in the proposed monument.

"The South has a real cultural legacy and the monument must relate to the people of the South," he said.

Whatever their ethnic heritage, he said, "The South is a collection of people who share a love for a land."

http://www.37thtexas.org/html/Newspaper.html

Other sources:

Charles Kelly Barrow, et.al. Forgotten Confederates: An Anthology About Black Southerners (1995). Currently the best book on the subject.

Ervin L. Jordan, Jr. Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia (1995). Well researched and very good source of information on Black Confederates, but has a strong Union bias.

Richard Rollins. Black Southerners in Gray (1994). Excellent source.

Dr. Edward Smith and Nelson Winbush, "Black Southern Heritage". An excellent educational video. Mr. Winbush is a descendent of a Black Confederate and a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV).

[thea_447]

"There are none so blind as those who will not see." Isaiah 6:9-10