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Popular vote
23 May 1861.........132,201 for....37,451 against
You like to use statistics to prove your points, though usually by twisting or omitting numbers that might disagree w/ you. So how many CS troops were in Virginia during the vote? How many CS soldiers at polling places? How many actions that could only be considered to benefit the CS prior to the vote? Would the CS have said oops sorry about that had the Secession vote not turned out to favor them. Or like the Presidential vote for Davis was the result already predetermined?
It has nothing to do with thread but I wonder why you are putting forth data that you know Trice has dealt with in other threads. You know the answers to all of the above and frankly the answers aren't the kind of thing you like to mention or admit.
__________________
Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
BS.
Secession only passed in VA & TN after Lincoln's call for 75,000 troops.
Secession only passed in VA & TN after Davis attacked the United States and after Davis' calls for 64,000 long-term troops for the Confederacy. About 32,000 of those were called up before Lincoln called for a single additional soldier (and does not count the many thousands of state troops called up before Ft. Sumter but not in Confederate service at the time.
By the time TN voted for secession, the TN governor had already concluded a military alliance with the Confederacy and sent troops to Virginia. He called up the state troops to intimidate voters at the polls (political arrests of those opposed began on the day of the vote). Also -- very strangely in a state so divided on secession -- the vote records that 100% of the troops called up voted in favor of secession, without a single dissenting vote. Most people would conclude that indicated vote fraud or a highly selective callup by the Governor. In the aftermath, Unionist papers were suppressed, martial law was declared in East TN counties, and more people (such as Brownlow, who was betrayed and tortured) were thrown in jail by the authorities for their political beliefs. The 2nd secession vote in TN was quite obviously one of the most rigged and coerced votes in American history.
In VA, some 30,000 Confederate troops were in the state when the vote took place; this includes a regiment from TN -- which also had not voted to secede yet. State authorities had already attacked Federal troops and seized Federal installations. In conjunction with Confederate authorities, VA had attempted to suborn rebellion in Maryland and to attack and seize Washington, D. C. (they couldn't get their troops in place in time, so the effort was called off). War had begun, without a single Federal soldier crossing the Potomac to "invade" the South. No one can be called responsible who ignores these events when talking about the election there.
This is a large load of nonsense you are trying to pass off.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
it appears all you wish to do is use them as others do as part of a modern-day agenda to dilute and hide the real reasons for the cause of that war.
I'm not hiding them...they're very plain for everyone to see
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__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Secession only passed in VA & TN after Davis attacked the United States and after Davis' calls for 64,000 long-term troops for the Confederacy. About 32,000 of those were called up before Lincoln called for a single additional soldier (and does not count the many thousands of state troops called up before Ft. Sumter but not in Confederate service at the time.
By the time TN voted for secession, the TN governor had already concluded a military alliance with the Confederacy and sent troops to Virginia. He called up the state troops to intimidate voters at the polls (political arrests of those opposed began on the day of the vote). Also -- very strangely in a state so divided on secession -- the vote records that 100% of the troops called up voted in favor of secession, without a single dissenting vote. Most people would conclude that indicated vote fraud or a highly selective callup by the Governor. In the aftermath, Unionist papers were suppressed, martial law was declared in East TN counties, and more people (such as Brownlow, who was betrayed and tortured) were thrown in jail by the authorities for their political beliefs. The 2nd secession vote in TN was quite obviously one of the most rigged and coerced votes in American history.
In VA, some 30,000 Confederate troops were in the state when the vote took place; this includes a regiment from TN -- which also had not voted to secede yet. State authorities had already attacked Federal troops and seized Federal installations. In conjunction with Confederate authorities, VA had attempted to suborn rebellion in Maryland and to attack and seize Washington, D. C. (they couldn't get their troops in place in time, so the effort was called off). War had begun, without a single Federal soldier crossing the Potomac to "invade" the South. No one can be called responsible who ignores these events when talking about the election there.
This is a large load of nonsense you are trying to pass off.
Tim
Neo-Radical revisionism- take a few 'facts' and blow it all out of proportion.
*
I would not be so naive to claim that elections in the mid-nineteenth century (north or south) were pure as the driven snow but...
...just how much 'coercion' do you need with these results-
VA
23 May 1861.........132,201 for (77%) ....37,451 against (23%)
TN
8 June 1861...........104,913 for (69%) ....47,238 against (31%)
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 04-21-2008 at 02:42 PM.
Neo-Radical revisionism- take a few 'facts' and blow it all out of proportion.
*
I would not be so naive to claim that elections in the mid-nineteenth century (north or south) were pure as the driven snow but...
...just how much 'coercion' do you need with these results-
VA
23 May 1861.........132,201 for (77%) ....37,451 against (23%)
TN
8 June 1861...........104,913 for (69%) ....47,238 against (31%)
Obviously quite a lot in Tennessee. The Governor thought so -- having already lost once. That's why he called out troops who were only 100% secessionist (unless you think he had their vote falsified) and arrested Unionists at the polls and why secessionists intimidated voters by denying them the effective use of a secret ballot. Then he started using the state troops to occupy their towns and suppress their newspapers.
You do admit he did all that, don't you? If you can't even admit to this truth, we can just ignore anything else you want to say.
Virginia also sent troops to the polling stations, but not in all counties -- mainly in the disputed ones -- and the actual results have been lost in several counties, so no one can actually give you a complete breakdown of the vote.
But in both these situations, the voters were presented with a fait accompli by their leaders: troops already in the field, acts of war against the US already committed. Just how "fair" an election is that?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Yes, using facts to back up what you say is a good habit.
I suggest you try it sometime.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
My great grandfather fought in Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi. He was a POW in Georgia and South Carolina. He spoke about Negroes, mulattoes, darkies, contrabands, and USCTs in his diary from 1862-1965. He never once mentions black Confederates or any other person mentioning black Confederates. I wonder why that is?
From his diary in 1863:
June 15th. Routed a little before daylight. Five days rations were given out. Marched at near 6 AM with four miles over a part corduroy and part plank road through a dense and luxuriant swamp across the peninsula lying opposite Vicksburg-to the river again. Waited until 1 PM and were then placed on board Steamer Forest Queen with orders to cross the river and march to the rear of Vicksburg, but just as we had embarked and a battery partly loaded, came orders to disembark and wait for further orders. Bivouacked in a wood on the riverbank. Around us were quartered a large motley collection of contraband Negroes of all classes and sexes presenting a sad and mournful spectacle of destitution and wretchedness. Most of them living in shelters made of fine boughs and underbrush. Yet despite their discomforts most of them seemed cheerful and happy-doubtless rejoicing in the freedom now before them. May God pity this class of sufferers from the war and overrule their emancipation from slaving so that their freedom shall be a blessing to themselves and the nation. A little distance from us was the encampments of some Negro recruits. Many of our men exercise a foolish prejudice against Negro troops and indulge in a petty persecution towards them, which makes one indignant to witness. The Negroes bear this patiently and set us a noble example in that respect. Vicksburg lies in plain sight. Cannon and mortars are thundering away at it without intermission by night or day. We are expecting daily to hear of the surrender of the city. At 6 PM came prospect of a shower leading us to put up tents in hot haste. Just got them up when orders came to pack and move. Marched at about dark, back to the spot we left in the morning. Hard marching in the dark, as the way was a rough half made corduroy full of slough holes, ditches and banks of earth making it anything but pleasant stumbling along in the dark. Our return march was illuminated by flashes of lightning, and the flash of an occasional bursting shell from our mortars-reverberations of thunder, and our mortars mingling together, making the scene grand and stirring. Such marching and counter marching without any apparent result, add but little rather detract from the patience and good nature of the men. Could not help feeling a little cross, but suppose such movements must be expected in war; and the less fretting indulged the better.
__________________
"Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
Yes, using facts to back up what you say is a good habit.
I suggest you try it sometime.
Oh I do, I don't distort or creatively edit things; you do enough of that for all of us here. Merely proof that Twain was quite adept at reading people and those who enjoy using stats... then and now.
Are you going to admit you don't consider the USCT soldiers? Or perhaps admit you overlooked USCT men from Alabama and Georgia. It's one or the other. So here are some facts for you to digest: http://www.civilwararchive.com/unional.htm
While I know you aren't familiar with Dyer, you really should be. It's full of all kinds of facts you can't dodge or discreedit including 186 USCT & 30 more Corps de Afrique organizations. Try referencing them sometime.
Freddy brings up a superb point that you have always ignored. Why are the hordes of Black Confederates soldier, you want to claim exist, not mentioned in the plethera of diaries and letters home?
__________________
Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
I'm not hiding them...they're very plain for everyone to see
\/
Yes, Battaion, it's very plain for everyone to see.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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