Black Confederates

[unionblue]

Shane,

As strange as the concept may seem, I am willing to go more with the 13,000 in battle than I am any other idea or figure. I know by the record there were free blacks in the South that fought as soldiers in the ranks and there are reports from both sides about slaves fighting in the ranks.

But the facts simply do not support the idea that this was a common or huge development in Southern armies. I tend to agree with you this is more of a 'Lost Cause' issue and not a true reflection of historical fact, in where slaves were looked down upon and were not wanted in the ranks of the Southern army until it was way too late to have an effect on the outcome, mainly due to Southern racism of the times.

Unionblue

[unionblue]

Friends,

A story with a spin on the idea of black Confederate soldiers and how reliable they might prove.

"A contraband who came into Sheridan's lines, when questioned about the Rebels arming the colored men, said, "About half de colored men think dey would run directly over to de Yankees wid de arms in their hands, and toder half think dey would jiss stand and fire a few volleys to the rear fust, 'fore de run-dat's all de difference."

From Soldier's Friend, March 5, 1865.

Unionblue

[gary]

Lest we forget, most Afro-Americans fought for the Union. That much is uncontested. What is forgotten or ignored by most historians or is unknown to most Americans (regardless of ethnicity) is that there were also Afro-Confederates who remained loyal to their state and fought against the Union.

[traveller]

Thousands of black Southerners served, and fought, for the Confederate States of America during the Civil War. Five thousand blacks fought in defense of the United States in the Revolutionary War. They were not fighting to defend the slavery that existed throughout the 13 Colonies at that time. Most of the Blacks that served with George Washington in the Continental Army were free Some worked with him on his plantation. The British offered black slaves their immediate freedom if they would serve the British Cause. The vast majority of blacks said “No!—We are going to remain loyal to the Colonies.”
I don’t think it was any different during the Civil War. If black slaves would serve in the armies of George Washington, why would you be surprised for them to serve in the armies of Robert E. Lee? I believe they fought in defense of their homes, their country and their way of life. I think the war may have been about politics and slavery for some, but for the common soldier, especially in the South it was more about survival and pride.

Traveller

[gary]

BTW, was reading about the Siege of Mobile and one Union soldier said that about half the Confederate artillerists were of African descent.

I wonder if they were just dirty? There are cases of white troops being mistaken for "colored" because of hard campaigning and the lack of time or resources with which to cleanse themselves.

[johan_steele]

Gary,

By the time of the Siege of Mobile the CSA was so strapped for troops they were doing anything to get men in uniform. A note from the 32nd Ia was that 18 CSA troops were "of African descent" they were noted later in the document as Slaves pressed into service as artillerymen.

I've always wondered about the frankly outrageous statement that thousands upon thousands of black men served in CSA ranks. There is no evidence to support that number. Neil has put forward the number of 13,000 as reosanable and I think that is at least 10 times to high. Yes quite a few Confederate officers took man servants to war w/ them in the early part... A good number definetly served as teamsters on average one wagon per regiment... how many men does it take to drive a wagon? They did a LOT of manual labor digging trenches, building breastworks etc. This did not make them soldiers. THey certainly weren't considered soldiers by the CSA govt, they weren't paid, their service wasn't recognized.

One very important thing stands against large numbers of black men in CSA ranks... Jeff Davis in May of 63 mad a little proclomation declaring all kinds of nastiness for black men in uniform and the officers leading them. There is no disclaimer about Black Men wearing CSA uniform. If there had been, wouldn't there be something mentioned about black men in CSA service being exempt?

Pure in simple slave labor a soldier does not make.

Rick mentions 5000 blacks serving in the Continental Army during thr Revolutionary War... That number seems very wrong, compared to the total number of soldiers serving in the Continental Army... 5000 would be enough for 5 Regiments... While I know how long the Revolutionary War lasted 5000 still seems rather high.

As to why they didn't fight in the CSA Army? The answer seems quite obvious to me, especially after the Emancipation Proclomation. Jusat look at the number of refugees following Sherman to the Sea... They were happy to see the invading Union Army as it promised freedom.

Yes Black men fought in the ranks of the CSA, that is not in doubt. But there were never very many and their contribution was miniscule, on par w/ the women who pretended to be men so they could fight.

Their contribution was immense to the Union, lets not forget that. Thta's where they made their mark on history, wearing Blue, not Gray or butternut.

[thea_447]

Part of a letter I recently saw:
From: reinout_temmerman@hotmail.com
To: Beltway@foxnews.com


It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, "saw the elephant" also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free.

1. The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at 1st Manassas (or 1st Battle of Bull Run) where they operated battery no. 2. In addition two black "regiments", one free and one slave, participated in the battle on behalf of the South. "Many colored people were killed in the action", recorded John Parker, a former slave.

2. At least one Black Confederate was a non-commissioned officer. James Washington, Co. D 35th Texas Cavalry, Confederate States Army, became it's 3rd Sergeant. Higher ranking black commissioned officers served in militia units, but this was on the State militia level (Louisiana) and not in the regular C.S. Army.

3. Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white confederate privates. This was not the case in the Union army where blacks did not receive equal pay. At the Confederate Buffalo Forge in Rockbridge County, Virginia, skilled black workers "earned on average three times the wages of white Confederate soldiers and more than most Confederate army officers ($350- $600 a year).

4. Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

5. Frederick Douglas reported, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels."

6. Black and white militiamen returned heavy fire on Union troops at the Battle of Griswoldsville (near Macon, GA). Approximately 600 boys and elderly men were killed in this skirmish.

7. In 1864, President Jefferson Davis approved a plan that proposed the emancipation of slaves, in return for the official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain and France. France showed interest but Britain refused.

8. The Jackson Battalion included two companies of black soldiers. They saw combat at Petersburg under Col. Shipp. "My men acted with utmost promptness and goodwill...Allow me to state sir that they behaved in an extraordinary acceptable manner."

9. Recently the National Park Service, with a recent discovery, recognized that blacks were asked to help defend the city of Petersburg, Virginia and were offered their freedom if they did so. Regardless of their official classification, black Americans performed support functions that in today's army many would be classified as official military service. The successes of white Confederate troops in battle, could only have been achieved with the support these loyal black Southerners.

10. Confederate General John B. Gordon (Army of Northern Virginia) reported that all of his troops were in favor of Colored troops and that it's adoption would have "greatly encouraged the army". Gen. Lee was anxious to receive regiments of black soldiers. The Richmond Sentinel reported on 24 Mar 1864, "None will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us." "Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor."

11. In March 1865, Judah P. Benjamin, Confederate Secretary Of State, promised freedom for blacks who served from the State of Virginia. Authority for this was finally received from the State of Virginia and on April 1st 1865, $100 bounties were offered to black soldiers. Benjamin exclaimed, "Let us say to every Negro who wants to go into the ranks, go and fight, and you are free Fight for your masters and you shall have your freedom." Confederate Officers were ordered to treat them humanely and protect them from "injustice and oppression".

12. A quota was set for 300,000 black soldiers for the Confederate States Colored Troops. 83% of Richmond's male slave population volunteered for duty. A special ball was held in Richmond to raise money for uniforms for these men. Before Richmond fell, black Confederates in gray uniforms drilled in the streets. Due to the war ending, it is believed only companies or squads of these troops ever saw any action. Many more black soldiers fought for the North, but that difference was simply a difference because the North instituted this progressive policy more sooner than the more conservative South. Black soldiers from both sides received discrimination from whites
who opposed the concept .

13. Union General U.S. Grant in Feb 1865 ordered the capture of "all the Negro men before the enemy can put them in their ranks." Frederick Douglass warned Lincoln that unless slaves were guaranteed freedom (those in Union controlled areas were still slaves) and land bounties, "they would take up arms for the rebels".

14. On April 4, 1865 (Amelia County, VA), a Confederate supply train was exclusively manned and guarded by black Infantry. When attacked by Federal Cavalry, they stood their ground and fought off the charge, but on the second charge they were overwhelmed. These soldiers are believed to be from "Major Turner's" Confederate command.

15. A Black Confederate, George _____, when captured by Federals was bribed to desert to the other side. He defiantly spoke, "Sir, you want me to desert, and I ain't no deserter. Down South, deserters disgrace their families and I am never going to do that."

16. Former slave, Horace King, accumulated great wealth as a contractor to the Confederate Navy. He was also an expert engineer and became known as the "Bridge builder of the Confederacy." One of his bridges was burned in a Yankee raid. His home was pillaged by Union troops, as his wife pleaded for mercy.

17. As of Feb. 1865 1,150 black seamen served in the Confederate Navy. One of these was among the last Confederates to surrender, aboard the CSS Shenandoah, six months after the war ended. This surrender took place in England.

18. Nearly 180,000 Black Southerners, from Virginia alone, provided logistical support for the Confederate military. Many were highly skilled workers. These included a wide range of jobs: nurses, military engineers, teamsters, ordnance department workers, brakemen, firemen, harness makers, blacksmiths, wagon makers, boatmen, mechanics, wheelwrights, etc. In the 1920'S Confederate pensions were finally allowed to some of those workers that were still living. Many thousands more served in other Confederate States.

19. During the early 1900's, many members of the United Confederate Veterans (UCV) advocated awarding former slaves rural acreage and a home. There was hope that justice could be given those slaves that were once promised "forty acres and a mule" but never received any. In the 1913 Confederate Veteran magazine published by the UCV, it was printed that this plan "If not Democratic, it is [the] Confederate" thing to do. There was much gratitude toward former slaves, which "thousands were loyal, to the last degree", now living with total poverty of the big cities. Unfortunately, their proposal fell on deaf ears on Capitol Hill.

source: http://groups.msn.com/CivilWarBattle...continued.msnw

By now it should be clear to you that Blacks served with honor in the Confederate States Armies and with sincere devotion to the Cause for which the Confederate Flags stand. This fact alone is prove that those who fly in your words "the Confederate Flag" are not saying "I hate Blacks" on the contrary there saying limited government, freedom of speech, honor, justice, should I continue?

And sir, I am proud to be counted among those who today defend the Confederate Flag and all the good it stands for against illiterate, unknowing, uninterested, politically correct, yankee carpetbaggers!

Dr. Leonard Haynes, an African-American professor at Southern University, stated, "When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South." Bear that in mind next time you trample upon other people's heritage and call them racists!

A Rebel Yell to you Sir!!

Reinout Temmerman
Captain CSA-E Belgium
SCV Saint Clair Camp 308 Alabama
Robert E Lee 1st Communications Division

[johan_steele]

Thea,

I though better of you. If I offend you in the following post... sorry. I swore an oath to defend this nation against all enemies... foreign & domsetic. You do of coarse realize most of what you put forward on your last post is pure unadulterated BS?

In particular Jefferson Davis's note of May of 1863 makes NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of CSA black troops? Yes, Black men served w/in the ranks of the CSA, as teamsters, slave labor, man servents, etc. a few even carried weapons (particularly among Arkansas Regiments). There is no reputable evidence that I have ever seen of more than 1000 Black men at any one time being armed as soldiers w/in the ranks of the CSA. you mention 13,000 black men seeing the elephent... what were their regiments? Where did they serve? What battles did they fight? Where were they taken prisoner? Where did they fall?

Skilled Black workers earned wages for their masters... how much of it did they see? And as many CSA troops weren't paid at all from 1863 on what was a wage worth? In note to poiunt 6. of yours... "14 black men were noted among the dead, two having arms, the rest appeared to have been attached to a battery of Napoleons." See the OR. On point 12. why did only two companies (less than 200 men) join Lees Army? After the war it was noted that CSA conscription officers (in 1865) were taking slaves in the stead of their masters... how many of those men made up that roughly 200? Point 14. 29 men... (Good Lord the Internet is a wonderful thing!) Point 17. "Give me two weeks and I'll turn even a dumb n****r into a sailor!" An Irish Bosains mate of a CSA raider when making the point that he needed men for the crew.

If black men were so well accepted w/in the ranks of the CSA why was Pat Cleburne (arguebly the finest general in the CSA)blacklisted by Jeff Davis after suggesting that the CSA arm slaves?

It seems to be a Lost Cause intent (why, pray tell?) to show that Black Men served in masse as soldiers among the CSA... There is creative evidence at best to reflect this. Yes, some black men willingly served the CSA. There is no doubt of this. But they were the exception, not the norm.

As I've a said before, slave labor digging entrenchments a soldier does not make.

Two understrength Companies served w/ Lee before Appomotax. SC militia included at least 300 black men. A regiment tried to join CSA service in La, they were refused accoutramnets & arms. For some odd reason they joined US service after the fall of New Orleans. It might have been because CSA authoritues knew armed men are no longer slaves...

THOUSANDS of Black men fled to Union lines at Hilton Head, Amelia Island, various places in Maryland to become "contrabands", following Shermans March to the Sea, Grants investment of Vicksburg, and many other Union incursions into CSA territory; why? Was it because they were so happy being slaves? Or maybe it was because they hoped & prayed for a margin of freedom?

There were black men who defended their homes from the depradation by Union troops, there were black men who hoped they might gain freedom from joining the CSA cause. Yes, there were black Confederates (one of the wealthiest slave owners in La was a black man) but again they were a minority.

There is no doubt that black men served far more significantly in the Union Cause than that of the CSA cause. And I have no doubt that the average Black Man of 1865 was quite happy that the Union won... if not it was back to the cotton fields under the whip of the local overseer...

"By now it should be clear to you that Blacks served with honor in the Confederate States Armies and with sincere devotion to the Cause for which the Confederate Flags stand. This fact alone is prove that those who fly in your words "the Confederate Flag" are not saying "I hate Blacks" on the contrary there saying limited government, freedom of speech, honor, justice, should I continue?"

Please do continue. Black men built the entrenchments at Atlanta, Petersburg etc. You are correct in saying all those who fly the CSA flag do not neccesarily hate blacks... but unfortunately all too many who do fly that flag also belong to an organization that would be all to happy to see the black man extinct.

"And sir, I am proud to be counted among those who today defend the Confederate Flag and all the good it stands for against illiterate, unknowing, uninterested, politically correct, yankee carpetbaggers!"

Ahmen!

The CSA battle flag should be flown over the graves of fallen CSA troops, at re-enactments and as an example of history, even among those wishing to express themselves as rebels. But the day it flies above the US flag is the day I'll tear it down and burn it.

-Your name and your deeds were forgotten before your bones were dry. And the lie that flew you is buried under a deeper lie… George Orwell

Shakes head.
Shane, you might to read more about Cleburne before you start dogging Thea. Especially concerning Major General William H.T. Walker and his fellow Bragg supporters. Read the chain of command fight Walker started. Cleburne submitted the proposal to Johnston. Not Davis. Johnston said he did not think it was something that would be forward as it was "political not military in tenor." Cleburne said OK. Walker hated Cleburne and went over Johnston's head and sent the proposal to Davis in an attempt to get Cleburne in trouble. As well as to undermine Johnston. He failed. Cleburne was not blacklisted. He was never censured. What Davis did do was place a gag order on it to avoid publicity. He commended Johnston for his inaction. At the time Davis was already considering doing just what Cleburne had suggested.

But I repeat. Cleburne was not blacklisted nor was he even censured by Davis. It was not even known he proposed it until 1880 when it came out in the OR. Which if he had been blacklisted it surely would have considering the officers involved. The belief he was not promoted because of it holds no water. It was solely for his troubles with Walker and Bragg. Which were considerable. Both of which happened long before he brought up using slaves as official soldiers in exchange for freedom. Nor was the only one who expressed interest in the proposal he presented. His proposal to Johnston was "WE propose..." 13 officers signed it, 3 brig Generals, and 10 regimental commanders signed it. No one was being singled out for bringing it up. The only conflict was from Walker and the Bragg faction. Sorry but that dog won’t hunt.


This was a bitter fight between Bragg supporters and those of Johnston. It was a chain of command type of fight famous in the military.

As to proof regarding black Confederates. Until you read Irwin Jordan's books on the topic and can legitimately discredit them your personal opinion means little. Because that is all it is. Opinion. You just don’t “want” to believe it seems. Irregardless of whether any of it is fact or not. Rationalization is not facts. In fact, not only do you disagree but do it in the most antagonizing manner possible. You have a need for that? Your hostility fairly reeks and it does not smell pleasant.

It does not do honor to the black men who indeed did fight for the South.

You set forth a challenge that pretty much makes me want to go out and buy a flag pole and a couple flags and invite you to give you a chance to vent at least some of your spleen.



(Message edited by aphillbilly on November 09, 2003)

[johan_steele]

Feel free Aphillbilly to fly that rebel flag... Remember, it is illegal to fly a flag higher than the US flag... not that it's often enforced. You've made it clear in many posts of your disgust w/ America, your wish that the CSA would have won and the Union crushed. Pardon mne if I'm less than impressed w/ your veracity.

As per Swords "Mountains Touched by Fire" and at least three other authors that I've read (while researching Chatanooga) w/in the last month Cleburne was censured... If not why pray tell was he never picked for higher command? He was certainly more qualified than either Bragg or Hood.

So it's just my personal opinion that about 25,000 blacks fell in behind Sherman on the March to the Sea? Or that Mr Davis made his proclomation seriously effecting the chances of a Black soldier or one of his officers appreciating CSA captivity. Why wouldn't he mention black confederates if they were so plentiful? Or are you suggesting Mr Davis never made the proclomation about black troops? Never mind, if a lie is told often enough it becomes truth... next I'll be hearing from the Lost Causers that the CSA actually won...

13,000 black men seeing the elephent is mentioned... what were their regiments? Where did they serve? What battles did they fight? Where were they taken prisoner? Where did they fall? It hurts to have a lie exposed doesn't it?

Glorify the CSA, that's fine. And there is plenty of good things to glorify. The fighting prowess of the men and their determination to name just a few... but their generous treatment of the Black Man isn't one of them. If the CSA did something wrong admit it, they were no more saints than I am and often less pleasant. especially if you happened to have dark skin.