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Thanks for that article, Timewalker. Very interesting read indeed. It shall be filed away for future reference.
This seems to be one more work that points to the fact that there were few black Confederate soldiers. Mr. Hollandsworth puts it out there right from the beginning that black southerners contributed to the Confederate war effort in four ways, and not one of them was as a soldier. And while he does not deny that there were probably some out there, he found no record of them in his research, and he admits that the few who did serve would have pention roles elsewhere.
I think Mr. Hollandsworth makes a very good case, and it was really quite an enlightening article. The elusive black confederate soldier is still yet to show up! Does anybody still have their camcorders still on?
Again, those particular pensions were not intended for soldiers.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
I check in with D. Rostov's Civil War Bookshelf now and again. He's a contrarian about a lot of issues, which can be useful, because it makes you think about the CW, not just repeat things. A long term cause of his is the rehabilitation of George McClellan, unfairly maligned in his view.
I read North and South Magazine and have read the editorials and letters about black Confederate soldiers. Levine engages the evidence presented about black Confederate soldiers and demolishes it with logic and research. Apparently unable to respond with their own evidence, their facts disproved, their arguments dismantled, advocates for the phantom legions of blacks in gray are left sputtering about "arrogance."
It's a shopworn debater's trick, when losing an argument on the merits, ratchet up the emotion, change the subject to the alleged personal shortcomings of your opponent.
....
Poulter, the editor of N and S, let the black confederates champions and Levine do a couple of rounds in the letters page, which is two more than I would have. So he let folks have their say....
There is no finality to this issue (no 'winner' of a debate matters) until there is an actual count of Blacks in the Confederate Army.
No one has done that. Neither Levine nor Poulter...nor anyone else...
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
...now I see you seem to be leaning to the idea that no matter what capacity these black slaves and freedmen served, either as servants, cooks, teamsters, etc., they should be called "Black Confederates."
Absolutely. That has always been my contention...not just now.
Here's an estimate I made on this board over two years ago-
-Note that I differentiate between soldiers, servants, &etc...
But I consider them all to be Black Confederates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Misdirection and dishonest in my own opinion.
No misdirection intended (see above post quoted from two years ago).
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
As for your response concerning the USCT (Your post #41 on the thread you started entitled, "The USCT (United States Colored Troops)....How many were Volunteers?) and your efforts to prove not all were volunteers, you were asked to provide figures as to those who were drafted and those who were volunteers. And your response was what?- "I don't know."
Correct...that's why the title of the thread is posed as a question. Some were not volunteers...thence- how many?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 04-17-2008 at 09:02 AM.
Again, those particular pensions were not intended for soldiers.
Read the first full paragraph on the second page. He says, and I quote "Black southerners contributed to the Confederate war effort in four ways." He then goes on to list the four ways; labor to produce food, building fortifications, bridges, etc., as part of the permanent work force in foundries, mines, etc., and as servants to their masters who had gone to war. He later goes on to say that if a black southerner had fought as a soldier, they would have used a different form. But his statement here is explicit; they helped in these four ways. There is no, "oh, btw, they also fought in great numbers during the war as well." And the title of his article is "Looking for Bob: Black Confederate Pensioners After the Civil War" (my emphasis added.) He didn't say noncombatant pensioners, or anything to that effect, but he put them all in one category. I would hazard a guess that if there were the great amounts out there that those like you claim, he would have run across dozens of them in his research, because even if one is going to look for one specific item, you run across a multitude of others along with them.
So, go and find these pension rolls, and look for men, labeled as colored, who actually are listed as soldiers. Not musicians, not cooks, not teamsters, but as true, musket toting soldiers. Because as of yet, I have seen not evidence of the vast numbers you and others claim.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
Read the first full paragraph on the second page. He says, and I quote "Black southerners contributed to the Confederate war effort in four ways." He then goes on to list the four ways; labor to produce food, building fortifications, bridges, etc., as part of the permanent work force in foundries, mines, etc., and as servants to their masters who had gone to war. He later goes on to say that if a black southerner had fought as a soldier, they would have used a different form. But his statement here is explicit; they helped in these four ways. There is no, "oh, btw, they also fought in great numbers during the war as well." And the title of his article is "Looking for Bob: Black Confederate Pensioners After the Civil War" (my emphasis added.) He didn't say noncombatant pensioners, or anything to that effect, but he put them all in one category. I would hazard a guess that if there were the great amounts out there that those like you claim, he would have run across dozens of them in his research, because even if one is going to look for one specific item, you run across a multitude of others along with them.
So, go and find these pension rolls, and look for men, labeled as colored, who actually are listed as soldiers. Not musicians, not cooks, not teamsters, but as true, musket toting soldiers. Because as of yet, I have seen not evidence of the vast numbers you and others claim.
Here are some in South Carolina-
Thomas Tobe, 1902 & 1919 Applications
"...he was a bona-fide soldier..."
"He was a free negro who volunteered in this company and served until the end of the war" Approved http://www.archivesindex.sc.gov/Conf...8000008699000/
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 04-17-2008 at 02:47 PM.
Dear Battalion,
As far as there being "no winner in this debate." (as you post above)
If this debate is about 60,000, 70,000, or one poster here wrote 120,000 "black confederates" in the CS army during the CW, the debate is over.
There weren't such numbers of black confederate soldiers in the CS armies. It hasn't been proved.
Is this a strawman?
I've never said there were 60,000/70,000 or 120,000 Black Confederate Soldiers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattMcK
The major military effort made by African Americans in the Civil War was to destroy the Confederacy, not preserve it.
I would disagree...based on the production of food, munitions, military stores etc.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 04-17-2008 at 04:33 PM.
Okay.......5 down. Long way to go there Battalion.
If a man "enlists" as a cook or as a musician, is he signing up for a combat roll? Don't know of many (not saying any) that sign up to be a cook and go into combat. In order to be a soldier, you have to be trained. You have to be put through drill, know how to march, how to move from column of fours to line of battle, etc, etc, etc. If you are not trained for that, but instead sign up to be in the rear, then you aren't a soldier. If you signed up to be a cook, or a musician, a position that keeps you in the rear, you aren't a soldier. And if, by chance, one of these men picked up a musket, that doesn't make him a soldier either. He must be trained in the art of war.....not music, and not how to use a Dutch Over.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
Dear Battalion,
Oh, now we're counting "food production" the slaves working on farms as black confederates.
After you count the teamsters, cooks, servants, the factory workers, the laborers, grooms, and the plantation hands(involved in food production), bootmakers, tailors, and even the barbers shaping those glorious beards, what will you have learned?
So, go and find these pension rolls, and look for men, labeled as colored, who actually are listed as soldiers. Not musicians, not cooks, not teamsters, but as true, musket toting soldiers. Because as of yet, I have seen not evidence of the vast numbers you and others claim.
Thomas Tobe "he was a bona-fide soldier"
Tom Arch "Private"
Tom Bing "Private"
Daniel Albright Long "Private"
John McKinley "Private"
Not satisfied? Then no more answers.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
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