Black Confederates

[rbenne]

Doug;

not to rub salt but the rebs lost Brigadier-General Francis S. Bartow, Killed at First Bull Run as well. Although some sources list him as a colonel.

Of course there was some confusion on ranks at that time like Major/Colonel/General Wheat.

Ok I have pre prepared my crow. I have to admit in my defense I am ill and my mind is very askew. And I read it long ago. And errrrr.....I was not wrong in the point that a black man was firing at Union Officers in battle in defense of the south.

It wasn't the first Union general likely killed by a body servant. It was just the first
Union Officer killed in Battle. I apologize for my mistake. I would note that Capt. Ashe always maintained it was Sam that fired the shot as he was a noted marksman. Lovely irony is that Winthrop was a passionate abolitionist. I find him listed as both a Colonel and a Major. Either way I was wrong.


...........
Histories of the Several Regiments and Battalions from North Carolina in the Great War, 1861-1865, Volume I:

Big Bethel, Virginia, is considered to be the first land battle of the war. It was fought on June 10, 1861. Union Major Theodore Winthrop was killed. The four men who are credited with possibly firing the fatal shot were in the 1st NC "Bethel" Regiment. They were: Private G.W.Buhman, Company H. Private Steve Russell, Company H. Private McIver, Company C. And Sam, body servant to Captain Ashe of Company D.




(Message edited by aphillbilly on August 23, 2003)

[rivrrat]

Tommy,
I was never disputing the fact that black men fought and fought bravely for the Confederate States. I was defending my Trans-Mississipi. As you have pointed out the war west of the Mississippi did not exist for many back east.

Ray,
You are right about rank early in the war. In June 1861 Lyon was a captain. He was made general by Lincoln and there was some dispute about the legality of his commission. Most of the nay sayers shut up after his death.

Doug,
I was watching God's and Generals last night and was repeatedly thinking Ang Lee would have been a better choice of a director for the movie.
His Ride with the Devil was more beautifully shot and intense where it should be. Granted the story wasn't....that great. But by and large a much better movie to me. I liked the fact it focused on the Trans Mississippi Theater. I wish had been more Quantrill though.
My tie into this thread is I thought the ex slave character was probally the best part of the film.
What is your take on the film?

YMOS
tommy

[gary]

Cut the woman out. It would be a better movie.

[rivrrat]

Tommy,

Ride with the Devil is immensely popular here in the Trans-Mississippi, especially along the Kansas-Missouri Border area where I grew up and live. Lawrence Ks., just 30 miles east of me, is currently celebrating it’s annual “Civil War in the West Days.” An annual event where the City whines about how innocent it was and what those nasty Missourians did to it. (Are my Cass County Missouri roots showing a little?) They are showing it every day. It is also shown at the Quantrill festivals in Missouri. It is almost a requirement of citizenship to see it.

I agree with you. The movie gives too much time to the love story and not enough to the background. Although the depiction of a young man joining the Guerrillas after the murder of family members is typical and common among Missouri Partisan Rangers, the movie fails to really show the devastation of Missouri by federal troops.

I think that the movie is so popular in the Guerrilla area because it is all we have.

[unionblue]

Found another interesting site on the subject of Black Confederate soldiers. The site is entitled, "Did Southern Blacks Fight for the South? Interesting views and ideas put forth, worth a look if you have the time.

http://www2.netdoor.com/~jgh/mobile.html

I await your comments.

Unionblue

[jac]

Interesting site.
I have been reading the posts on this subject. The site you posted, Neil, edged toward something I've thought about regarding blacks fighting for the Confederacy, and that's the mixed race issue...
Probably most of us are too young to recall the concept of 'passing', or, a light skinned black person passing themselves off as white. Remember, in those days, the 'one drop' rule applied- one drop of African blood meant you were black.
I have no doubt there were men in CSA ranks that were 'passing', but whether that suggests that blacks in quantity fought for the CSA, I don't think so.

[unionblue]

Jack,

I am of the same opinion here. If there were a large number of slave/free blacks fighting within the ranks of any Confederate army, where are they? I have heard a figure of 13,000 blacks fighting in combat, but no where near the figure of 90,000. That many would have made some kind of impact on the written record and in the letters home on both sides if such numbers were used in combat.

That, plus the opinions of the men in charge of the South's armies and government at the time, just don't support the idea that blacks fought in any significant numbers during the war.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[johan_steele]

Neil,

I greatly doubt the figure of 13,000. Slave labor a soldier does not make. It's more of the "Lost Cause" mentality. ie: If there were black men fighting for the Confederacy the Confederacy must not have been racists! Or maybe; See, Black men fought for the Confederacy, therefore they must have agreed w/ the status quo and wanted to stay Slaves!

A train load of... well I suppose my opinion is quite clear.