Sherman's march

[johan_steele]

Pray tell how can a person who has never marched a mile, slept under the stars or lived on salt pork & hardtack judge those who have. A former soldier is more likely to aqppreciate one who has served and certainly more likely to believe it isn't slanted against them... just my take on the issue. Demonization of the color Blue seems to be a Southern art form. While the cannonization of gray is equally lauded. It's 140 years too late for people to show themselves a CSA patriot unless there is another CSA on the horizon that I've missed. What can I say, I take personal offence at the way some **** all over the American flag and the memory of those who fought for it, much in the same way some are aggravated at the demonization of the South. Maybe I shouldn't have had five direct realtives who wore blue (one who was w/ Sherman all the way to the sea)... and my wife being descended from a slave colors my views somewhat.

The South unleashed the whirlwind, they didn't like the reaping of it.

I'll just go back to singing "Kingdom Comin' aka Year of Jubilo" or maybe "Marching through Georgia" would be more appropriate...

Neil & Aphillbilly, at my Radar site we would regularly have GRU people in a white van w/ diplomatic plates and LOTS of antenna park at the edge of the site. We would call the Highway Patrol and be told "Two hours." So we would simply point our strongest transmitter at the van and turn it on... as soon as their earlobes and testicles started to tingle they would move the van. We would then call the Highway patrol and tell them not to bother. As I understand it the first time we called them back to wave them off they were a bit worried, thought we might have done something illegal. Well we never shot anybody and they never learned anything... we were using a copy of a Russian Radar made in California.

[unionblue]

Shane,

People who have not marched one mile or slept under the stars or ate hardtack and salt pork, used to order those very some soldiers into combat all the time and they judged those men, harshly.

I must also comment that anyone who has served in the modern military has no exact idea either about civil war soldiering either. No concept whatsoever. With modern techniques, materials, tactics, warm weather clothing, modern medical care, training, mobile transport, lasers, computers, M1 tanks, APCs, etc., etc., the difference between what a Civil War soldier had to endure to what one today has to endure is like going to the far side of the moon from West Virginia.

I like to compare it to the time I retired from the Army and then took up Civil War reenacting. I was a babe in the woods, in spite of the fact I had been with the 10th Mountain Division, Light Infantry for the last two years of my service. I had to UNLEARN many skills and tactics I had learned with that division. Even to the point of learning how to do an about face, which was completely different in Civil War drill.

As for clothing and survival gear, what a downsizing THAT was. I was used to having all my cold-weather gear, gortex gloves, jacket, long underwear, modern modular tent, compact individual stoves, food, sleeping SYSTEM, not just a sleeping bag, to insure I would stay warm and toasty. And this is all for an individual soldier! Switching to a wool blanket and a rubber poncho and a half of a canvas shelter half, or 'dog' tent, when you can get it, was a real challenge! And MREs to salt pork and hardtack! UGH!

And communications. Radios, burst transmitters, landlines, computer links and then you switch to shouted commands and what you can hear from the guy next to you? And maybe a glimpse at your regimental flags? It was so tough to take it all in and learn from the ground up.

What am I saying? Not even a MODERN soldier can get close to the idea of Civil War combat. You may guess and think you have a common reference, sleeping on the ground in a tent, for example. But take away the tent, the rubber foam cushion, the sleeping bag, and its a brand new, unknown experience. It's NEW, from the clothing, tactics, formations, weapons, orders and experiences. And I have had occasion to learn that a person outside my profession at times, could make very valuable observations that I would not even had considered inside my military mindset. So, ease up a bit and reconsider.

So I do not ascribe to your idea that a soldier would have a better appreciation of what those men went through at that time. A person with a military background might even have a false impression of that times military capabilities. Remember, most of those men had not ever experienced military life or training or combat, so they would be just as confused and unknowing as any civilian.

As for the opinions expressed here by others that are negative towards those who wore the blue, they are entitled to them, if they feel strongly about it, I have seen those who feel just as strongly with positive feelings express their opinons. And they are entitled to state it. I just wish everyone would not take a 140 year old conflict personally and just present their opinions with common courtsey and respect towards one another. I know feelings tend to get a little heated at times, but does it do a service to those men from that time, who sacraficed so much, to get into a 'point-scoring' mode on this board? Doesn't the valor and deeds of those times get lost in the shouting matches? Let's not take it personal, let's just realize folks have strong feelings and opinions on a subject near and dear to their hearts. Let's explore and learn together and enjoy our debates, realizing, we can take nothing away from those people of 140 years ago. Their deeds are done, their lives over, but the lessons they learned are still waiting for us to learn.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[johan_steele]

Neil, I think they do. In fact I think it's vitally important. Many of the same motivations are present in the modern soldier, American or otherwise. The motivations and emotions in particular. A veteran is more likely to sympathize and at least try and relate w/ another veteran than someone who never left the comfort of their hearth. I think even a man who has been in the field only as long as required by basic training can begin to garner an understanding of what a man went through month after month. A start is a realization that there is a difference between the motivations of a civilian and a soldier.

I know that we of the modern era can't relate to what the men of the AoP or ANV went through in 63 w/ weeks on end w/out a bath or hot food. But the modern soldier can certainly relate to the discomfort and begin to understand the sacrifices made. Those who have seen the horror of war can begin to understand how little those who have not sacrificed their comfort to serve and honor their flag understand them.

Today the soldier has to deal w/ a media machine that despises him and a fifth column in the peace/ hate America movement; many question why they are sacrificing so much to protect those who hate or despise them. The feeling was similar towards the Copperheads and those who bought their way out of the draft on the Union side and there was certainly no love lost for those on the CSA side of the aisle who lacked the intestinal fortitude to fight and who often accused them of not supporting the cause enough.

I just hope that when a veteran is judged after he is dead, it is by a jury of his peers... I know the experiances are radically different, the modern US soldier is the best equipped, best trained and one of the most effective in the world today. So was the Union soldier of 63-65. The CSA soldier wrote the book on success w/out support. And the enlisted man of today knows little more about the overall picture on the battlefiled than his CW ancestor, he's better trained and better equiped... but he holds many of the same opinions towards his superiors and is all to used to dealing w/ NCO's who are more competant than the officers appointed over him.

Are veterans, today or 140 years ago, in any way better than civilians? No, but they are different, the military changes people. Whether for good or bad I know not. But there is a difference... a veteran has served something greater than himself. A veteran has shown his devotion to his country and all too many gave the last full measure of that devotion.

It is no wonder to me why the GAR became a political force to be reckoned w/. And why membership was limited to veterans. The same became true of the American Legion.

You are completely correct about the difference between a modern soldier and one of the CW is indeed a massive change. The differences in the manual arms are enough to make some apalectic... I still fall back into my USAF training sometimes in the midst of a re-enactment. The differences are immense but so are the similarities. I think the way a War 1 or War 2 vet would look at things might be quite similar. For instance I have no doubt that a CW soldier might look at any cartoon drawn by Bill Mauldin and understand it.

In short I believe a veteran has a bit of a leg up on those who haven't served. For what it's worth I wonder if it's really possible for anyone to ever truly understand the motivations of men of so long ago.

I try not to judge them and get a bit aggravated at those who would paint them as evil... I question the motivations and the agenda of those who do.

"As for the opinions expressed here by others that are negative towards those who wore the blue, they are entitled to them, if they feel strongly about it, I have seen those who feel just as strongly with positive feelings express their opinons. And they are entitled to state it. I just wish everyone would not take a 140 year old conflict personally and just present their opinions with common courtsey and respect towards one another. I know feelings tend to get a little heated at times, but does it do a service to those men from that time, who sacraficed so much, to get into a 'point-scoring' mode on this board? Doesn't the valor and deeds of those times get lost in the shouting matches? Let's not take it personal, let's just realize folks have strong feelings and opinions on a subject near and dear to their hearts. Let's explore and learn together and enjoy our debates, realizing, we can take nothing away from those people of 140 years ago. Their deeds are done, their lives over, but the lessons they learned are still waiting for us to learn."

Point taken, I will back off.

[unionblue]

Dear Shane,

I see where you are coming from in a way. I had some feelings along those lines myself once, during the Vietnam War, right after I freely enlisted to serve my country. I was called a 'Nazi', a 'Gestopo Thug', and 'Storm Trooper' while I was home on leave in the uniform I was proud to wear. I had young people come up and give me a 'Heil Hitler' salute to my face, teenagers not much younger than myself at the time.

I was HOT. How could those civilian idiots understand what I had been through, all in their name? To defend them, protect them and perhaps even die for them? We in the service at that time tended to band together and look down on those we were to protect. We felt ourselves better than them, smarter in the 'real' ways of the world.

It took me a long time to realize that they were the boss and I was the servant. I mean that Shane. I had to bring myself around to that type of thinking when it came to service to my country. My country wasn't me or my fellow servicemen or the other branches that hung it out in danger everyday. It was those millions of civilians back home that I owed my alligence to. The ones who were braver than I was. The ones who went to work everyday, who paid their taxes, raised their kids and faced layoffs and depressions and 'economic slumps.' The ones who obeyed the law and didn't cheat to get ahead. The ones who would smile at you, buy you a beer and say thanks. And the ones who thought you were too dumb to go to school a get a 'real' job or that you just liked the idea of killing. The ones who despised your uniform and thought you had no real use in the real world.

I know about what you mean about a shared experience in the military. Every military man when meeting another service man has an instant connection, an instant understanding about hardship and sacrifice. I loved that feeling when I was in and I miss it terribly now that I am out. But it does not make us 'better' or 'wiser' or 'smarter'. It does give us a common reference point with things military. But little else.

I went into the service (strange name, but right idea, don't you think?) when I was 18. I had no idea about the 'real world' or how tough it was for everyone else. Yes, we are asked to take risks, even to the point of losing our lives, but what about those on 9-11? Just folks trying to help folks under conditions that resembled hell. Oklahoma? Folks again doing brave and extraordinary things under horrible conditions. Not the emts or firemen, etc. People.

I hear you, Shane, I see your point. But servicemen are NOT special in some ways. Underneath the uniform, we are still just people.

Not disagreeing, just something I have carried with me for a long time, Shane.

Thank you for your understanding and your willingness to listen to me. Thank you for understanding, even if you don't fully agree. Ain't this a great country?

Look forward to seeing you on the board soon,

YMOS,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on November 23, 2003)

Same could be said that a soldier could never understand what it is to be a woman with her husband away struggling to just survive and an invading army come through and burn the crops they could not steal, steal the few precious heirlooms your grandmother had given you right off your body. To beat or kill or rape you if you try to resist them from doing the aforementioned deeds. Then burn your home as they leave.

To say you cannot make a judgement on how it'd feel or even appreciate it unless you were a home-owner, and a woman, and a mother, and a victim of fire and theft, would seem to be the exact same thing. To say unless you are not these things your opinion isn’t worth anything would seem the same as well.

Same thing could be said that you cannot judge a past or future president unless you have been one. Or at least in politics as a highly elected official. Or to understand Enron unless you had committed financial fraud. Or understand medical malpractice unless you are a doctor. Nor sit on a jury of a convicted killer unless you were one.

If one starts requiring a standard of experience before there is acceptable validation of other people’s ideas and their understanding of people, historical events and consequences, then one must realize one will be expected to be held to the same standard.

As far as I am concerned, I do not need to know what it feels like to drown to understand the horror of it. All I have to do is use my common sense.

In my life I have been stabbed on two separate occasions, shot at once, and beaten too many times to easily recall. Which is more than most military today can actually say. But I would not consider any of these events as any help whatsoever to me understand what being treated for bayonet wounds during the CW would be like. Nor the feeling of sheer relief of having a sharpshooter miss me. Nor what it must be like to get hit by a heavyweight champion. No help whatsoever.

For the understanding of those things I read, I watch, I listen and I use my imagination. To me, if I thought otherwise, what would be the point of any CW war discussion? Or discussing any history for that matter. In fact if I start using my experiences, if I am so close to my experiences I require them, of myself as well as from others. Then they limit me rather than adding enlightenment.

I think interest in a topic will carry you a lot ****her in understanding history than anything else.

Just my opinion.

(Message edited by aphillbilly on November 23, 2003)

[johan_steele]

Aphillbilly,

If you were a soldier, who would you rather judge you: a peacenik who hates you or another soldier who might be inclined to at least try to judge you fairly?

I can judge a man on his merits; was he gripped by honesty & integrity w/ a good bit of courage thrown in? I won't judge a man solely on the color of uniform he wore. Ie: just because a man wore blue he wasn't a good man and just because a man wore gray he was a bloody saint. That's foolish at best. I judge a man or woman by their merit. There were good & bad among both armies.

I've been shot twice and knifed... didn't care for the experiances. I agree salt rock in the behind and buckshot in the leg doesn't come close to a minnie ball or any combat wound... the knife didn't even hurt initially as I was too busy beating the bejeesus out of the dirtbag who had knifed me... again I don't think the experiance equates to the CW. Has that experiance made me better understand the plight of a soldier during the Civil War, I never said it did.

Having been a soldier I think I have at least a grasp of understanding of the feelings and motivations of men of the time... perhaps because all soldiers, whether North or South, have given a measure of devotion.

Having been spit on, had rocks thrown at me and all sorts of hate spewn on me simply because I was wearing the uniform of the United States I can begin to understand why civilian homes might have been burned... was it right when it happened? No... but I understand the anger that set those fires.

Reading diaries of CSA men who were blamed for not stopping the Yankees, for not giving their all when they had watched all too many of their friends fall...

Do I need to have seen a rape to know it's the vilest thing a man can do to a woman? No I don't... frankly my opinion on what to do w/ a rapist has gotten me off of a jury as the Defense lawyer thought it was too extreme...

I also believe that being a re-enactor has helped my understanding of the men of the times more than any book. I've worn the uniform in ungodly heat, route marched through a thunderstorm and slept soaked clean through to my drawers. It has given me a understanding of what the men of the day accomplished... an understanding of why the Confederates couldn't push that last charge at Shiloh and an awe at the accomplishment of the men of the Army of the Cumberland at Missionary Ridge.

All knowledge doesn't come from experiance, but it certainly helps w/ the understanding.

An understanding of what is considered a valid military target and what can be used for military uses helps too... and being willing to learn why mills, granaries, bridges etc were destroyed goes a long way in painting the soldier who lit the torches in a less demonic light.

Were there crimes commited? Yes. Have they been blown all out of proportion at times? Yes.

It's too easy to demonize America... what can I say I'm proud of the miniscule role I've played in defending her against those who hate her and yet benefit from her at the same time.

Maybe it's the challenge of building up my pride a bit when the hate America crowd gets so much more press that those who are proud to be an American.

Who are we to judge the men of the past? That is God's job, not mine. But maybe I can do a little to defend those men when apparently others won't. I don't like to see men slandered when they can't defend themselves. I thought that was my right. Or did my service only guarantee the rights of those who hate the US? Freedom of speech guarantees an individual the right to speak their mind, it doesn't guarantee that there will be no contrary reply.

I respect those who served the CSA so faithfully. Especially when they were so ineptly served by their commisary dept, paymasters and the civilians at home. I just hope to God no American Army will have to ever again make do w/ such. The Union Army dealt w/ inept leadership and the Copperheads at home... At least the modern military seems to be spared the inept leadership, but they still have the Copperheads at home and a media that despises them and everything they stand for.

"War educates the senses, calls into action the will, perfects the physical constitution, and brings men into such swift and close collision in critical moments that man measures man." Ralph Waldo Emerson

Shane,

It is sad that you have to see things in absolutes but I will try to answer your question. If I had to choose to be judged by either "a peacenik who hates you" or "another soldier who will at least try to judge me fairly" then I would have to say neither. Since I do not know why the so called peacenik hates me nor the soldier would be fair. Since you did not qualify either's intellect or capacity for understanding an issue I would pick neither. Being a soldier alone is no holy grail of honor nor insight nor capacity for fair play. If I commit war crimes would I want the jury to be war criminals? I guess so.

But since I would not be a war criminal. Under any circumstances. So being innocent of the accused crimes, I would not want war criminals on my jury who think I am like them.

When I am judged I prefer someone who is impartial.

To diminish a person's worth based on them being a so called peacenik is your choice. Feel free. You obviously feel picked on. What it has to do with the civil war I fail to see. Why you keep bringing it up all the time I have no clue. Personally I see nothing wrong for someone hating war. I always felt fighting a war for peace was like f ing for virginity. I sense this unrelenting and blinding hatred that fairly drips from you like venom. I wish it were otherwise. Obviously you fancy yourself a tough hombre. You can exercise your free speech all you like. Hope you are enjoying yourself.

I respect Neil a great deal. I am going to try and do as he asked. In order to do that I do not think I will be responding to you again. To do so will just escalate the situation. Which is sad to me. You have information worth sharing. It is just too hard for me to read through the vitriolic attitudes towards any people who don’t believe as you do to find it. Blame it on me being a peacenenik since my purpose is to try to keep the peace on the boards. So I will call a truce on my part and just not respond to your posts. To do that I will make a concerted effort to not even read them again. I will ask you a favor. You have something you need or must to say to me, for the interest of the boards I would ask you use my e mail. Just click on my name and it is in my profile.

To everyone else, I beg your indulgence and if my comments are out of place I apologize and welcome sanction if it is so deemed. It is never my purpose to cause disharmony.

YMOS
tommy

[johan_steele]

Tough hombre... been called a lot of things but that's a first. Thanks... I think.

NO I am not a tough man Aphillbilly, merely a man who has had some... interesting experiances. I'm truly sorry that it offends you that I am proud of my service and my country. I will make a strong point though; I never have and never will lump soldiers w/ war criminals. That is like lumping southerners w/ racism. Foolish at best.

As it is I bid you a good day.

"The object of War is peace." James Clavell.

[thea_447]

Tommy,
I think you are right in your assumption that Mr. Christen has an agenda of his own, far removed from any study of the WBTS. As I've previously told Neil, whom I also consider to be a very good friend, I will not be drawn into any further hostilities on this board.

I too beg pardon from all board members for this useless diversion. I am here, as I'm sure many others are, to learn about the War Between the States. When it goes beyond that, into insults and personal attacks, it is a waste of my name, and frankly, rather childish.

I will not be engaging in any further debate whatsoever with Mr. Christen.

Now, for the sake of this board, please let us put all this aside and continue to pursue the parts of history that are of interest to us.

Good afternoon,

[civilwartalk]

I've decided to lock this thread. The conversations here are getting a bit confrontational.

As posted in our Rules & Proper Etiquette:

"By all means have a healthy exchange of opinions. You can agree to disagree. You can challenge another member's opinions. But remember, you should challenge respectfully. Do not insult, abuse or verbally attack other members."

This is just a reminder, and I know these conversations routinely draw out your passion to discuss the subject at hand, but there's no need to verbally spar with each other. Let's all take a second and remember to be respectful of each other.

Thanks for everyone's help in this matter.