Civil War History - General DiscussionFor Discussions on Civil War Era Personalities, Politics, Issues, Campaigns, Battles, and more. Serious Civil War Discussions Only Please! All other posts will be deleted.
Dear Cedarstripper,
The very fact that we can have this discussion suggests the ambiguous and subjective nature of the symbolism of flags. And that, in my opinion, means that there should be a presumption in favour of allowing all flags to fly at all times.
My focus has been the flying of a confederate flag over a state capitol or public school. Do you suggest that any and all flags should properly be flown over government buildings without protest?
Quote:
When Miller’s Photographic History Of The Civil War was published in 1911 President Taft wrote the preface and included the following observation:
We have reached a point in this country when we can look back, not without love, not without intense pride, but without partisan passion, to the events of the Civil War. We have reached a point, I am glad to say, when the North can admire to the full the heroes of the South, and the South can admire to the full the heroes of the North.
So much for 1911, when people were neither defacing Confederate monuments nor demanding the banning of flags. What has gone wrong since that date? I’ll tell you: the last few decades have seen the rise (in your country and mine) of militant groups of professional “victims” who want to impose their views on everyone else and at the same time keep a sharp eye out for financial gain through bleating demands for “compensation”. It doesn’t matter whether their beef is over the colour of their skin, or their religion, or their sexuality: their tactics are the same.
I find the above entirely irrelevant to the subject of the official flying of defunct flags of defunct armies by present day governments. The subject is not about defacing monuments, victimization or reparations. And it should be noted that in 1911, Taft was not looking at the Southern Cross flying from the domes of state capitols. The fact that there was no incidence of it across the old confederacy leads me to believe that even then it was thought inappropriate.
Quote:
....But, on reflection, I would rather restrict myself to suggesting that all of the flags flown in the Civil War/W.B.T.S. mean a great deal to some people and, for that reason alone, all should be allowed to fly without let or hindrance.
Bill
The criteria of "meaning a great deal to some people" would qualify a prominent Christian cross to adorn the capitol domes of most state capitols in the South. I do not offer this as a straw man; the principle under it is very much the same - both the flag and the cross being a symbolic icon of the institution within. While we recognize the proper display of a cross atop a church, we equally recognize the inappropriateness of it atop a public school or state capitol. I sincerely doubt we wouldn't acknowledge a legitimate protest to such a thing in preference to writing it off as political correctness. In actuality, there doesn't seem to exist any objection to the private flying of confederate flags, or even government flying or display in an historical or memorial context. At least I can't find it here.
I'm trying to imagine a Soviet Union flag waving from the Latvian parliament, or a nazi flag flying atop the German Chancellor's residence, or a flag of Mexico flapping in the Texas breeze atop the capitol in Austin. Can you tell me of any instances where a current government flies the flag of a previous government or defunct army on its major government building?
While we seem to be more or less of one accord regarding the notion that the Confederate flag is no longer our national symbol, but rather a piece of history, I would like to point out the fact that I can't find a good miniature of the US Flag, two versions of which were current during the period 1861-65. Southern shops simply don't carry these miniatures. Can they be found in 'northern' states? I have ancestors who rode and fought in the US Army and would like to give them "equal billing" to my Confederates. Period Union flags are harder to find in Tennessee than Vanderbilt football jerseys! (Not that I'd want a Vanderbilt jersey.)
Cederstripper,
I concur with your assesment of the flying the Confederate flag from a Government building or school. I am a Southerner, born and raised in the South, and while I honor that flag, I realize that it is a symbol of a Government that has passed on. I still honor my ancestors that fought and died defending that flag. However, I must be honest here, I am not a skinhead, or neo-nazi, and I despise what they stand for. I still, secretly, I may add, hope that one day, we will win that war, but that is all it is, just sort of an old longing that comes from my upbringing. I realize that this country is the greatest country in the world, and it is through that refiners fire, of the War for Southern Independence, that we have evolved into what we are today. No one can belittle what my ancestors fought for, and contrary to what they believe, they did NOT fight for the slaves, but for their farms and for their land and for their families. I no longer will argue the point, because I know better. But, as has been pointed out, it no longer is the proud flag of that proud Govenrment, it is gone. The symbols are still here, and true Southerners KNOW what that flag stands for. No one can tell me differently. But, we are NOW, the United States of America, and we must uphold the principles for which it stands. If this were 1860, my allegiance would be, more than likely, to the Confederate States of America. I am not an agitator, but I do show my flag at home, in my truck, and even when I was at work, but not on Government or school buildings. It deserves it's own place, a place of honor, but not as something to inspire ill feelings toward it. If folks don't like the flag, they do not have to look at it. I know that, that flag does seem to incite bad feelings and I attribute that to those hate groups that I mentioned earlier, but I do respect others feelings, and I want them to respect mine as well. So, with that said, I will fly my flag in other places that it will not be in conflict with our national flag. Our sections still have their differences, but when all is said and done, we are all...Americans. In our every day activities, we still have our rivilries, with sports and the like, and we still banter about our differences with North and South, regarding the late unpleasantness, but in the end..........The Confederate flag should still not be flown over any Government edifaces, for it is the flag of a defeated nation, and make no mistake, we were defeated, as much as it may pain me to say so. Gen. Lee said it best, when he said: "I think it the duty of every citizen, in the present condition of the country, to do all in his power to aid in the restoration of peace and harmony, and in no way to oppose the policy of the State or General Government directed to that object." 'Nuff said!
Hi Larry, as far as miniature US civil war era flags, I think you can locate them on a number of flag web sites. I don't personally know of any available in southwest Indiana, but that's not to say they aren't available here. I have a full size 35 star US flag as part of a display along with the Confederate battle flag, both of which I obtained thru the "Collector's Armory". I got them through their catalog, but I'm sure they have a web-site as well. The flags in my display are draped, sort of bunting-style around a large framed print entitled "Battle of Antietam", that I purchased at the battlefield shop. (In southwest Indiana it seems that Confederate flags are much more available than the 35 star US flag). We were know as "butternuts" in this area during the war. Even though north of the Mason-Dixon line, most of the population sympathized with the Confederate cause. Not much fighting went on in this area though, just mostly heaving drinking....
Terry
We have been at cross purposes, and the fault is mine. I have been talking about the flag controversy in its broader sense whereas, on checking, I find that this thread was always about the specific issue of flags over public buildings. There is a British colloquialism which describes my participation in this discussion, and that is:
"What a plonker."
I trust no translation is necessary. My apologies.
As a late entry into this debate, please allow another two cents worth.
Folks wish to ban the Southern Cross due to the fact that it has been co-opted by white supremacist and hate groups.
If we acquiesce to this, should we not ban crosses as well? After all the KKK uses them all the time.
As others pointed out, the stars and stripes flew on all American slave ships, ban it too.
If we start banning everything that offends someone, we won’t have much left. As to state capitals and such flying it., I believe it was unionblue who said it should be the US Flag there. However, isn’t that what the whole war was about? States vs federal rights?
Need a clarification please. Some recent postings state that the Confederate Battle Flag is known as the "Southern Cross". I hadn't heard of that before coming to this board, and there's a lot of things I've learned in just the short time I've been here. Just so I'm clear, the symbol that is the southern cross is the "X" on the battle flag, the white stars on the blue X, on the red background? I had only heard of the southern cross as being a sort of constellation pattern in the stars, and then I remember a song by Crosby, Stills, and Nash of the same name. Could someone please advise? Thanks.
Terry
rbenne, you're absolutely right on all counts. And all you have to do is look at the news to see that the issue of state's rights still hasn't been settled yet. If we only did those things that didn't offend anybody we'd do nothing. And that would offend somebody too!
william42, I think the Crosby, Stills, and Nash song actually refers to the constellation of the Southern Cross since the song is about sailing in the Southern part of the world. You may have in mind the anti-Southern song that Neil Young did called "Southern Man".
The Southern Cross is also St Andrews Cross. The same as the English Union Jack's. Both utilized St Andrew's Cross into their flags. The Stars and Bars was the national flag but in the smoke of combat and/or in no wind, it too closely resembled the Stars and Stripes. Hence the creation of the Confederate Battle Flag, or as it is commonly referred to, the CBF.
The Southern Cross that C,S, &Y sing of is indeed a constellation.
ronmcc4,
As to Neil Young......well....as was said about him in another song: "A southern man don’t need him around anyhow."
*personal note* I am in no way a fan of American Idol. But I did see it a couple of times and I was absolutely thrilled to hear Rueben choose to sing Sweet Home Alabama. It was the one that put him over the top too.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
