Confederate Flag Controversy

[larry_cockerham]

I must also agree wholeheartedly with Cedarstripper. White supremacy is a 'modern' concept originating in the 1920s. Remember the 100's of thousands of black southern soldiers.

[8thvacav]

I know there were Black soldiers that fought for the South but "100's of thousands? Were did you find that info? Or are you joking?

[larry_cockerham]

I was expecting that very question. Do I have an answer? No. However, I have heard that expressed. I rather doubt the figure was that high, either, but there was at least a substantial number of black Confederate soldiers. More research obviously needed on that question. I didn't pull than one out of my ear however. Wouldn't surprise me if I could find 50,000, but that's a hunch at best. I'm wondering if there is a tabulation of racial breakdown among the soldier population. Must be?

[larry_cockerham]

Found this: (certainly not hundreds of thousands, but thousands)

Black Confederates



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There is no question that black Americans made important contributions in the Confederate armed forces; they served in support and combat roles both on land and at sea. It is not possible to provide an accurate count of the many blacks that served in the Confederate forces but there are some excellent estimates by first-hand observers. An English observer in 1865 estimated that there were 30,000 black servants in the Confederate Army of Norhern Virginia in 1862 (Battlefields of the South, Vol 1., page 58). This estimate is no doubt too high but indicates that substantial numbers of blacks were travelling and working with this Confederate Army. At about this same time, Dr. Lewis Steiner, a member of the U.S. Sanitary Commission who happened to be in Frederick, Maryland as the Confederate Army passed through on their way to Sharpsburg noted a large number of armed black soldiers. Steiner recorded in his diary that five-percent of the army he observed were black soldiers but based on his description it is probable that he was describing only those who appeared to be serving as combatants. On Wednesday September 10, 1862 Steiner wrote,

"At 4 o'clock this morning the Rebel army began to move from our town, Jackson's force taking the advance. The movement continued until 8 o'clock P.M., occupying 16 hours. The most liberal calculation could not give them more than 65,000 men. Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in the number … They had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and they were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of generals and promiscuously mixed up with all the Rebel horde."

In 1861, the Third Alabama Infantry Regiment marched off to be the first of many proud regiments from their state to serve in Virginia. There were 1,000 white soldiers in the ranks and almost as many blacks serving in support and probably combat roles. Nearly all of the 3,000 free blacks in Alabama served the Confederacy in one capacity or another, as a matter of business and patriotism (Fleming).

At the Battle of Seven Pines or Fair Oaks near Richmond (May 31 and June 1, 1862), a black cook and minister named Pomp who was serving with an Alabama regiment got excited, picked up a rifle and went into the battle. He was heard yelling at his regiment, "Der Lor' hab mercy on us all, boys, here dey comes agin! Dar it is," he shouted, as the Yankees fired over their heads, "just as I taught! Can't shoot worth a bad five-cent piece. Now's de time, boys!" As the Alabamians returned with a withering fire and mounted a furious charge, the black minister was heard shouting, "Pitch in, white folks- Uncle Pomp's behind yer. Send all de Yankees to de 'ternal flames, whar dere's weeping and gnashing of-sail in Alabama; stick 'em wid de bayonet, and send all de blue ornery cusses to de state of eternal fire and brimstone!" (Battlefields of the South. Vol. 2, page 253)

That many such Southern blacks fought and died in the forces of the Confederacy there is no doubt. Although nothing is known about burial practices for black Confederates, there can be little doubt that some black Confederates are buried in Oakwood Military Cemetery. Even if segregation occurred during burial there still would have been some men that inevitably found their way in because many of the early burials in Oakwood were of exhumations from nearby battlefields. When esteemed historian Richard Rollins was interviewed about the possibility of black Confederate burials in Oakwood he was unaware of any known soldiers but never doubted that Unknown black Confederates were certainly interred therein.



For more information on black Confederates, consult Black Southerners in Gray, Essays on Afro-Americans in the Confederate Armies. Edited by Richard Rollins. Journal of Confederate History Series. Vol. XI. Southern Heritage Press. 1994. P.O. Box 1615 Murfreesboro, TN 37133-1615



REFERENCES

Barrow, Charles Kely, J.H. Segars, and R. B. Rosenburg, Editors. Forgotten Confederates, An Anthology About Black Southerners. Journal of Confederate History Series. Vol. XIV. Southern Heritage Press. 1995.
Battlefields of the South. John Bradburn. New York. 1865.
Fleming, Walter. Civil War and Reconstruction in Alabama. Page 208. Columbia University Press. New York. 1905
Rollins, Richard. Black Southerners in Gray in Black Southerners in Gray, Essays on Afro-Americans in the Confederate Armies. Edited by Richard Rollins. Journal of Confederate History Series. Vol. XI. Southern Heritage Press. 1994.
Steiner, Dr. Lewis. Quoted in Issac W. Heysinger. Antietam and the Maryland and Virgina Campaigns of 1862. Pages 122-123. Neale Publishing Company. New York. 1912.

[bill_torrens]

Dear Cedarstripper,

I don't think it is dishonest to state that the combination of white supremacy and preservation of slavery is a distinguising feature separating the Union and the Confederacy.

White supremacy was common to both. And at the time of the creation of the C.S. government the preservation of slavery was common to both, in that it was enshrined in the laws of both.

Emancipation was a war measure whose only purpose was to help achieve a military victory. If that purpose could have been achieved by enslaving more people, that is what would have happened. There was no ethical element to it at all, and it is the wildest form of self-deception for anyone in the United States to think that they can take any pride in it. Good may have come from it, but in itself it was shabby and cynical.

While African slavery existed for 85 years under Old Glory, for 144 years since, she has generally been identified with creating an ultimate evolution of civil rights; wheras any flags of the Confederacy flew 100% of their four years over an effort to preserve that slavery.

This is a meaningless comparison. There is no way of knowing how the institution of slavery and the relationship between the races would have evolved in the Confederate States if its independence had been achieved.

Bill

[william42]

Larry, thank you for your help on this...much 'apreciated....

Terry

[cedarstripper]

Originally Posted by bill_torrens

White supremacy was common to both. And at the time of the creation of the C.S. government the preservation of slavery was common to both, in that it was enshrined in the laws of both.

Why do you stop at 1861? What Old Glory represents today is also reflected in her conduct since then. That conduct includes the abolition of African slavery, in direct opposition to the Confederacy. That distinction is undeniable. Do you suggest that citizens who would today be bothered by the flying of the Southern Cross over their state capitol are unreasonable for identifying the confederacy with the preservation of slavery but not the US? I'm not seeing that.

Emancipation was a war measure whose only purpose was to help achieve a military victory. If that purpose could have been achieved by enslaving more people, that is what would have happened. There was no ethical element to it at all, and it is the wildest form of self-deception for anyone in the United States to think that they can take any pride in it. Good may have come from it, but in itself it was shabby and cynical.

Emancipation is not embodied only in Lincoln's proclamation. To describe the abolishment of slavery as "shabby" and "cynical" makes me think you only see it as a singular political/military strategy. This seems to me a restrictively narrow view. The resistance to allow slavery to spread to the territories, to aggressive abolitionism, to the rise of the Republican party, to the 13th thru 15th Amendments, is indicative that emancipation and the subsequent refinement of civil rights are of a scope well outside Jan. 1, 1863.

This is a meaningless comparison. There is no way of knowing how the institution of slavery and the relationship between the races would have evolved in the Confederate States if its independence had been achieved.
Bill

I agree, but only as equally meaningless as denying a distinction between the USA and CSA due to an existence of slavery under her flag prior to the end of the Civil War. It is not necessary to imagine what may (or may not) have been the eventual demise of slavery under the CSA to disqualify the Confederate flag from representing emancipation. It was not, and was not to be a goal of the CSA.

Its not my intention to suggest that the Union went to war to free slaves, but I think it incorrect to claim that by wars end, anyone in the Union would have allowed slavery to continue to exist, as a means to end the war or not. But regardless, the point I'd like to make is that the US flag's history and what it today represents did not end in 1865. The CSA's did.

Regards

[paulheels]

I am a southerner, born and raised in South Carolina, where alot of flag controversy has occurred. I have always believed that the flag was a symbol of heritage. But after learning many new interesting tidbits I have come to believe that if the flag is going to be flown, then it should be a flag with more meaning. This flag was adopted near the end of the war, late 1864- early 1865 (correct me if I am wrong). Also many people have taken this flag and made it a hate sign, which further degrades the true beliefs behind it. Personally I think that the war should be remembered in a different way. During the 1960's and integration in South Carolina, the leaders in the state house decided to put the flag on the state house. They did this in retaliation of integration, Strom Thurmond being one of the main leaders. So in SC I know that the flag was not flown for "heritage" but in retaliation.

[larry_cockerham]

William Porcher Miles was the guy who kept trying to get the Southern Cross adopted as the Confederate National Flag. He first proposed that design to the Confederate Congress March 4, 1861, but was only able to get that symbol inserted in the upper left corner of the white background on May 1, 1863. That remained and the vertical red stripe added to the right side of the white background March 4, 1865. The southern cross earned it's 'fame' under fire. That's where we should have left it to rest.

[bill_torrens]

Dear Cedarstripper,

The very fact that we can have this discussion suggests the ambiguous and subjective nature of the symbolism of flags. And that, in my opinion, means that there should be a presumption in favour of allowing all flags to fly at all times.

When Miller’s Photographic History Of The Civil War was published in 1911 President Taft wrote the preface and included the following observation:

We have reached a point in this country when we can look back, not without love, not without intense pride, but without partisan passion, to the events of the Civil War. We have reached a point, I am glad to say, when the North can admire to the full the heroes of the South, and the South can admire to the full the heroes of the North.

So much for 1911, when people were neither defacing Confederate monuments nor demanding the banning of flags. What has gone wrong since that date? I’ll tell you: the last few decades have seen the rise (in your country and mine) of militant groups of professional “victims” who want to impose their views on everyone else and at the same time keep a sharp eye out for financial gain through bleating demands for “compensation”. It doesn’t matter whether their beef is over the colour of their skin, or their religion, or their sexuality: their tactics are the same.

I could get involved in a passionate argument with you over the relative merits of the flags of the Confederacy and those of the Union. But, on reflection, I would rather restrict myself to suggesting that all of the flags flown in the Civil War/W.B.T.S. mean a great deal to some people and, for that reason alone, all should be allowed to fly without let or hindrance.

Bill