Confederate Flag Controversy

[william42]

This the Bonnie Blue Flag, true or false. Thanks.

[8thvacav]

Terry, Here is a site on the Confederate flags.
http://www.confederateflags.org/

[cedarstripper]

Just to egg the discussion on, does anyone have the opinion that one of the tenets of the confederacy was white supremecy and preservation of slavery, and that therefore, like it or not, that is what any confederate flag represents to many southerners, particularly black southerners? Is that a reality?

And one other. Since there arer many flags that represent the confederacy, why the insistence (or at least preference) of flying the southern cross over government buildings, which seems to be the only flag hi-jacked by hate groups? (especially since it was not even the official flag of the confederacy) Would there have been the controversy had the stars and bars flown.

Regards

[bill_torrens]

Dear William/Terry,

My understanding is that the first flag you posted is indeed the Stars & Bars. For the very good reason that the blue canton with the stars is combined with three bars of red and white.

I believe that the second flag you posted is the Army of Tennessee version of the battle flag. The A.N.V. version tended to be square rather than rectangular.

[bill_torrens]

Dear Cedarstripper,

White supremacy was one of the tenets of all Caucasian societies in the middle of the 19th century. It is patently dishonest to suggest that this was truer of the Confederacy than of the United States. Of all the flags in the western world, the Stars & Stripes is the one which has flown longest over Negro slaves. If any flag deserves to be banned because of this association then Old Glory, I'm afraid, is the one to go.

Bill

[8thvacav]

Terry, The battle flag maybe a national flag too. Like the 8th's

[william42]

Ok, thank you Bill and Martin. 'Preciate the feedback... Terry

[cedarstripper]

Originally Posted by bill_torrens

Dear Cedarstripper,
.... It is patently dishonest to suggest that this was truer of the Confederacy than of the United States.

Respectfully, I don't think it is dishonest to state that the combination of white supremecy and preservation of slavery is a distinguising feature separating the Union and the Confederacy. Nor is it dishonest to state that the Stars & Stripes can be identified with emancipation and civil rights for negroes, while the Stars & Bars cannot. I am not so naive to suggest that populations north and south had unanimous attitudes respectively, but nevertheless, the Union did end up accomplishing what was, I think, an eventual goal since the founding - the end of African slavery.

Of all the flags in the western world, the Stars & Stripes is the one which has flown longest over Negro slaves. If any flag deserves to be banned because of this association then Old Glory, I'm afraid, is the one to go.
Bill

Why is the amount of time a flag flies the litmus test of whether that flag is representative of promoting that institution? While African slavery existed for 85 years under Old Glory, for 144 years since, she has generally been identified with creating an ultimate evolution of civil rights; wheras any flags of the Confederacy flew 100% of their four years over an effort to preserve that slavery. The time frames do little for me compared to the intent.

I am fully in favor of personal displays of the southren cross battleflag, or any other historic flag, flying over cemetaries, parades, front lawns, or pasted to the tops of cars. It's simply none of my business what private citizens want to honor. But my personal opinion is that it is inappropriate to fly a flag over a government building that does not represent the government inside. I hope that is not taken as disrespectful to Southerners.

Regards

[larry_cockerham]

I'm afraid I owe the group an apology for the confusion I caused with my somewhat innaccurate terminology earlier describing the flags. Without describing my ramblings earlier, many of you are correct that the STARS AND BARS term that I used incorrectly should refer to the first national flag of the Confederacy.

"The flag of the Confederate States of America shall consist of a red field with a white space extending horizontally through the center and equal in width to one-third the width of the flag. The red space above and below to be the same width as the white. The union blue extending down through the white space and stopping at the lower red space. In the center of the union a circle of white stars corresponding in mumber with the States in the Confederacy"... adopted March 1, 1861, this was the first national flag which was too confusing to be used in battle. It looked at a distance too much like the U.S. Flag. That was the main reason the St. Andrews cross became the basic battle flag in it's various versions.

The St. Andrews cross was then placed on a white background to become the Flag of the Confederate States of America from May 1, 1863 to March 4, 1865. (At that time a vertical red stripe with added to the right side of the white background and was actually adopted, but alas the Confederacy came to an end about the same time.) The second national flag was called the 'stainless banner' because of it's white background. "the flag of the Confederate States shall be as follows: The field to be white, the length double the width of the flag, with the union (now used as the battle flag) to be a swuare of two-thirds the width of the flag, having the ground red; thereon a broad saltier of blue, bordered with white, and emblazoned with white mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding in number to that of the Confederate States"

From Devereaux D. Cannon Jr.'s THE FLAGS OF THE CONFEDERACY:

"On January 9, 1861, the Convention of the People of Mississippi adopted an Ordinance of Secession. With the announcement of the Ordinance, a large blue flag bearing a single white star was raised over the capitol building in Jackson. One of the witnesses of this event, an Irish born actor named Harry Macarthy, was so inspired by the spectacle that he wrote a song entitled "The Bonnie Blue Flag" which was destined to be the second most popular patriotic song in the Confederacy"..... this lone star flag had been used since 1810 in West Florida and Louisiana republics. That same flag was adopted by the Texas Republic from1836 to 1839. Five of the Confederate states used this lone star image in different forms. It was never adopted by the Confederate government.

[larry_cockerham]

William, your images are quite correct. Again, my apology.