Civil War History - The Eastern TheaterDiscuss any and all battles, movements, and events occuring in the Eastern Theater here! This includes any actions in tha area east of the Appalachian Mountains in the vicinity of the river capitals of Richmond and Washington D.C.
When Grant finally cornered Lee near Appomatox in April, 1865, he sent Lee a note inviting the surrender of the AoNV. Lee responded with a note asking what Grant's terms were for the surrender of all Confederate forces. Grant responded that he did not have authority to treat for general surrender terms, having been specifically ordered by Lincoln not to negotiate general surrender terms.
Question? Do you think Lee really intended, as commander of all Confederate forces, to surrender all of the Confederate army? Or was it a stalling tactic to gain more time and hopefully try to escape?
My first inclination is that Lee was simply stalling for time. However, given Lee's apparent view that Richmond and the AoNV were the be-all and end-all of the Confederate war effort, he may indeed have agreed to surrender of all Confederate forces.
Johnston's and Breckenridge's attempts to do this same thing (surrender of all forces) in negotiations with Sherman may indicate that the query was sincere. Lee and Johnston clearly believed the war was over at that point. Davis - not so much.
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
SOP when being obliged to surrender is to negotiate for terms -- even when knowing there won't be any. Buckner tried and didn't succeed. Pemberton tried and got away with terms. It never hurts to try.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
SOP when being obliged to surrender is to negotiate for terms -- even when knowing there won't be any. Buckner tried and didn't succeed. Pemberton tried and got away with terms. It never hurts to try.
ole
But was Lee serious in asking for terms for all Confederate forces as opposed to simply the AoNV?
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
At the time, Lee was the commander of all the Confederate armies -- at least he had the title. Don't know how he could have reached all the commanders if, in fact, he knew where they were.
He might well have been trying to give the other armies a chance to get away or make some gains, but if he did finally agree to terms, then he'd have been duty bound to honor his agreement.
Perhaps he figured that if he made arrangements for all armies he'd get better terms. He wasn't in a position to expect terms for the AoNV (being surrounded and starving), but the pot might be made sweeter by offering up the other forces.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
In my remembrance of Lee's and Grant's messages, they exchanged in those days leading up to the surrender of AoNV. Lee informed Grant he could only surrender the AoNV and President Davis could be the only one who could seek terms and surrender Confederacy.
Following the surrender Grant visited Lee and ask him to sent out a message to the other Confederate forces to surrender and Lee turned down Grants request.
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
In my remembrance of Lee's and Grant's messages, they exchanged in those days leading up to the surrender of AoNV. Lee informed Grant he could only surrender the AoNV and President Davis could be the only one who could seek terms and surrender Confederacy.
Following the surrender Grant visited Lee and ask him to sent out a message to the other Confederate forces to surrender and Lee turned down Grants request.
HEADQUARTERS ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA,
APRIL 8, 1865
Lieut. Gen. U.S. GRANT: GENERAL: I received at a late hour your note of to-day. In mine of yesterday I did not intend to propose the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia, but to ask the terms of your proposition. To be frank, I do not think the emergency has arisen to call for the surrender of this army, but as the restoration of peace should be the sole object of all, I desired to know whether your proposals would lead to that end. I cannot, therefore, meet you with a view to surrender the Army of Northern Virginia, but as far as your proposal may affect the C. S. forces under my command, and tend to the restoration of peace, I should be pleased to meet you at 10 a.m., to-morrow; on the old stage road to Richmond, between the picket-lines of the two armies.
R. E. LEE,
Pretty much all the histories I have read have interpreted this as Lee offering to discuss surrender of all Confederate forces as "C. S. forces under my command" would include all Confederate forces. Grant certainly appears to have understood it as such.
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
Lieut. Gen. U.S. GRANT: GENERAL: I received at a late hour your note of to-day. In mine of yesterday I did not intend to propose the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia, but to ask the terms of your proposition. To be frank, I do not think the emergency has arisen to call for the surrender of this army, but as the restoration of peace should be the sole object of all, I desired to know whether your proposals would lead to that end. I cannot, therefore, meet you with a view to surrender the Army of Northern Virginia, but as far as your proposal may affect the C. S. forces under my command, and tend to the restoration of peace, I should be pleased to meet you at 10 a.m., to-morrow; on the old stage road to Richmond, between the picket-lines of the two armies.
R. E. LEE,
Pretty much all the histories I have read have interpreted this as Lee offering to discuss surrender of all Confederate forces as "C. S. forces under my command" would include all Confederate forces. Grant certainly appears to have understood it as such.
In the end he only surrenders his AoNV. He does not ask any other confederate army to surrender and when asked to help in this matter Lee refuses....
The "C.S. forces" under Lee's direct command(AoNV) do surrender and he does not offer to surrender any other C.S. forces....
I think Lee is unwilling to openly admit defeat of his army so he sends a wordy statement talking about peace but indirectly it was about the surrender of his army...
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
I am not entirely certain that just one note of April 8, 1865 by Lee to Grant about the surrendering of 'Confederate Armies' can be answered by just one letter but, should be viewed with all the associated documented correspondences between Grant and Lee; otherwise--we're just looking on one bit of a conversation back and forth and how things unfold are equally important to the beginning and the end.
I proffer this correspondence to suggest that there could have been a flow between Lee and Grant about 'all of the Confederate Armies.' Remembering that President Davis appointed Lee as 'Commander of all the Confederate Army.'
Excerpts from "The Official Record of the Rebellion" - O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XXXIV/1 [S# 61]
APRIL 7, 1865.
General R. E. LEE:
GENERAL: The result of the last week must convince you of the hopelessness of further resistance on the part of the Army of Northern Virginia in this struggle. I feel that it is so, and regard it as my duty to shift from myself the responsibility of any further effusion of blood by asking of you the surrender of that portion of the C. S. army known as the Army of Northern Virginia.
U.S. GRANT,
Lieutenant-General.
-------------Note----Grant is focused on just AoNV--not the entire CSA army----
Lieut. Gen. U.S. GRANT:
GENERAL: I have received your note of this date. Though not entertaining the opinion you express on the hopelessness of further resistance on the part of the <ar61_55> Army of Northern Virginia, I reciprocate your desire to avoid useless effusion of blood, and therefore, before considering your proposition, ask the terms you will offer on condition of its surrender.
R. E. LEE,
General.
-------------------
APRIL 8, 1865.
General R. E. LEE:
GENERAL: Your note of last evening, in reply to mine of same date, asking the condition on which I will accept the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia, is just received. In reply I would say that, peace being my great desire, there is but one condition I would insist upon, namely, that the men and officers surrendered shall be disqualified for taking up arms again against the Government of the United States until properly exchanged. I will meet you, or will designate officers to meet any officers you may name for the same purpose, at any point agreeable to you, for the purpose of arranging definitely the terms upon which the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia will be received.
U.S. GRANT,
Lieutenant-General.
-----------------
APRIL 8, 1865.
Lieut. Gen. U.S. GRANT:
GENERAL: I received at a late hour your note of to-day. In mine of yesterday I did not intend to propose the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia, but to ask the terms of your proposition. To be frank, I do not think the emergency has arisen to call for the surrender of this army, but as the restoration of peace should be the sole object of all, I desired to know whether your proposals would lead to that end. I cannot, therefore, meet you with a view to surrender the Army of Northern Virginia, but as far as your proposal may affect the C. S. forces under my command, and tend to the restoration of peace, I should be pleased to meet you at 10 a.m., to-morrow, on the old stage road to Richmond, between the picket-lines of the two armies.
R. E. LEE,
General.
---------------
APRIL 9, 1865.
General R. E. LEE:
GENERAL. Your note of yesterday is received. I have no authority to treat on the subject of peace; the meeting proposed for 10 a.m. to-day could lead to no good. I will state, however, general, that I am equally anxious for peace with yourself, and the whole North entertains the same feeling. The terms upon which peace can be had are well understood. By the South laying down their arms they will hasten that most desirable event, save thousands of human lives, and hundreds of millions of property not yet destroyed. Seriously hoping that all our difficulties may be settled without the loss of another life, I subscribe myself, &c.,
U.S. GRANT,
Lieutenant-General
------------Note--I see only 'hope' for the larger picture between North and South --just two Generals exchanging thoughts/hopes/desires....
------------------
APRIL 9, 1865.
Lieut. Gen. U.S. GRANT:
GENERAL: I received your note of this morning on the picket-line, whither I had come to meet you and ascertain definitely what terms were embraced in your proposal of yesterday with reference to the surrender of this army. I now ask an interview in accordance with the offer contained in your letter of yesterday for that purpose.
R. E. LEE,
General.
-----------------
APPOMATTOX COURT-HOUSE, VA., April 9, 1865.
General R. E. LEE:
GENERAL: In accordance with the substance of my letter to you of the 8th instant, I propose to receive the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia on the following terms, to wit: Rolls of all the officers and men to be made in duplicate, one copy to be given to an officer to be designated by me, the other to be retained by such officer or officers as you may designate. The officers to give their individual paroles not to take up arms against the Government of the United States until properly exchanged; and each company or regimental commander sign a like parole for the; men of their commands. The arms, artillery, and public property to be parked and stacked, and turned over to the officers appointed by me to receive them. This will not embrace the side-arms of the officers nor their private horses or baggage. This done, each officer and man will be allowed to return to his home, not to be disturbed by U.S. authority so long as they observe their paroles and the laws in force where they may reside.
U.S. GRANT,
Lieutenant-General.
--------------Grant still maintains focus on just Lee's Army----
HEADQUARTERS ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA,
April 9, 1865.
Lieut. Gen. U.S. GRANT:
GENERAL: I received your letter of this date containing the terms of surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia as proposed by you. As they are substantially the same as those expressed in your letter of the 8th instant, they are accepted. I will proceed to designate the proper officers to carry the stipulations into effect.
R. E. LEE,
General.
------------------------------
Personally, I feel that Grant did not Lee's help in having other Armies surrender as, once Lee did -- who was the epitome of a commanding General, respected and followed as an example; the others would fall on their own as they didn't have the fortitude Lee had. So, for me--Lee made it possible for others to surrender, as he did so first and thus being the first--wouldn't affect the others from surrendering afterward--it may have been different if Johnson or Waite surrendered first. Lee, in a sense gave permission to surrender, just by doing so and setting the standards of it.
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
In support of this thread-and may cause another topic discussion - I am going to add an excerpt of General Grant's report to Secretary of War Stanton- O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XXXVI/1 [S# 67]: No. 1.--Reports of Lieut. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant, U. S. Army, commanding Armies of the United States, including operations March, 1864-May, 1865.-------
[Excerpt]--On the 20th, he took possession of Macon, Ga., with 60 field guns, 1,200 militia, and 5 generals, surrendered by General Howell Cobb. General Wilson hearing that Jeff. Davis was trying to make his escape, sent forces in pursuit, and succeeded in capturing him on the morning of May 11. On the 4th day of May General Dick Taylor surrendered to General Canby all the remaining rebel forces east of the Mississippi.(*) A force sufficient to insure an easy triumph over the enemy under Kirby Smith, west of the Mississippi, was immediately put in motion for Texas, and Major-General Sheridan designated for its immediate command; but on the 26th day of May, and before they reached their destination. General Kirby Smith surrendered his entire command to Major-General Canby. This surrender did not take place, however, until after the capture of the rebel President and Vice-President, and the bad faith was exhibited of first disbanding most of his army and permitting an indiscriminate plunder of public property.
Owing to the report that many of those lately in arms against the Government had taken refuge upon the soil of Mexico, carrying with them arms rightfully belonging to the United States, which had been surrendered to us by agreement (among them some of the leaders who had surrendered in person), and the disturbed condition of affairs on the Rio Grande, the orders for troops to proceed to Texas were not changed.
[Skip paragraph]
It has been my fortune to see the armies of both the West and the East fight battles, and from what I have seen I know there is no difference in their fighting qualities. All that it was possible for men to do in battle they have done. The Western armies commenced their battles in the Mississippi Valley, and received the final surrender of the remnant of the principal army opposed to them in <ar67_63> North Carolina. The armies of the East commenced their battles on the river from which the Army of the Potomac derived its name, and received the final surrender of their old antagonist at Appomattox Court-House, Va. The splendid achievements of each have nationalized our victories, removed all sectional jealousies (of which we have unfortunately experienced too much), and the cause of crimination and recrimination that might have followed had either section failed in its duty. All have a proud record, and all sections can well congratulate themselves and each other for having done their full share in restoring the supremacy of law over every foot of territory belonging to the United States. Let them hope for perpetual peace and harmony with that enemy whose manhood, however mistaken the cause, drew forth such herculean deeds of valor.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
U. S. GRANT,
Lieutenant-General.
Hon. E. M. STANTON,
Secretary of War.
[End of Excerpts]
As General Grant reported; as the Lt. General of the USA forces; the sequence is in his report; that the real 'lid closer' was the capture of President Jefferson Davis and his office holders.
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
General R. E. LEE:
GENERAL. Your note of yesterday is received. I have no authority to treat on the subject of peace; the meeting proposed for 10 a.m. to-day could lead to no good. I will state, however, general, that I am equally anxious for peace with yourself, and the whole North entertains the same feeling. The terms upon which peace can be had are well understood. By the South laying down their arms they will hasten that most desirable event, save thousands of human lives, and hundreds of millions of property not yet destroyed. Seriously hoping that all our difficulties may be settled without the loss of another life, I subscribe myself, &c.,
U.S. GRANT,
Lieutenant-General
You can argue that Grant boohooed Lee's wordy peace proposal. It seems Grant's only desire was the surrender of the AoNV.
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
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