Civil War History - The Eastern TheaterDiscuss any and all battles, movements, and events occuring in the Eastern Theater here! This includes any actions in tha area east of the Appalachian Mountains in the vicinity of the river capitals of Richmond and Washington D.C.
finish my point! Obviously the English have to assess the relative strengths and weaknesses of the antagonists. The English interest seems to lie in a short war. If England intervenes on the side of the South, is it an intervention that costs more than its worth?
"So you believe the situation of the Confederates was much like that of the Rebels in the Revolutionary War?"
No it was worse than the U.S. situation in the War of 1812 and it was much worse than that of the Rebels in the Revolutionary War.
By 1860, the U.S. had a surplus of steamboats to attack Confederate strongholds along the Mississippi River and its tributaries.
The U.S. far outdistanced the Southern states in the manufacture of iron product, wrought iron, boilers, steam engines, foundries, automated shoe production, machine run sewing machines for clothing production.
The British gauged the American threat to Canada correctly at the time. It was not another War of 1812, with a few thousand American soldiers, but as high as forty thousand enemy troops, supplied by rail to the Canadian frontier, and with steamboats, for troop movement and supply on the Great Lakes.
Confederate production was so poor that they had to import horseshoes from Great Britain.
Anyone who thought there was a similarity between the Revolution and the Civil War, needed to be assigned to a lunatic asylum. Of course, I believe there were a good collection, among the slave oligarchy, that would fit that description.
"So you believe the situation of the Confederates was much like that of the Rebels in the Revolutionary War?"
No it was worse than the U.S. situation in the War of 1812 and it was much worse than that of the Rebels in the Revolutionary War.
By 1860, the U.S. had a surplus of steamboats to attack Confederate strongholds along the Mississippi River and its tributaries.
The U.S. far outdistanced the Southern states in the manufacture of iron product, wrought iron, boilers, steam engines, foundries, automated shoe production, machine run sewing machines for clothing production.
The British gauged the American threat to Canada correctly at the time. It was not another War of 1812, with a few thousand American soldiers, but as high as forty thousand enemy troops, supplied by rail to the Canadian frontier, and with steamboats, for troop movement and supply on the Great Lakes.
Confederate production was so poor that they had to import horseshoes from Great Britain.
Anyone who thought there was a similarity between the Revolution and the Civil War, needed to be assigned to a lunatic asylum. Of course, I believe there were a good collection, among the slave oligarchy, that would fit that description.
Were there any Northerners who needed to be in a lunatic asylum?...or was it just Southerners?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
I think both sides thought of themselves as the true heirs of the American Revolution. On the southern side, R.E.Lee, I think consciously modelled himself after Washington, long before the war started. He and the ANV were certainly in the place of Washington and the Continental Army in the hopes of the Confederacy.
Washington and Lee shared many attributes, the command of self as the basis for the command of others, the aristocratic manner, the appearance of disinterest, the immense prestige they accrued, the audacity. Lee was the better general and perhaps the better manager of his high spirited and touchy commanders. Washington was IMO the greater political leader, and had the larger mind. Lee sought to preserve, Washington sought to create.
The Union also harked back to the revolutionaries, especially to the Declaration of Independence and its promise that "all men were created equal." They(with many exceptions, I'm sure), considered the idea of representative democracy to be a universal one, and that the Constitution represented the best future for America and the world, and secession represented a betrayal of that ideal.
Last edited by matthew mckeon; 06-29-2007 at 11:55 PM.
Personally, as a resident of Virginia; there were many 'heros' that came from Virginia as well as the ability to brag on having the 'first President.'
From the Revolutionary War through to the pre-Civil War; many grandsons of those Revolutionary heros were now facing the shadow of their grandparents. Family pride also may have taken place; as well as people knowing who you were related to. But, as some have said--the fact that a good cluster of grandsons lived in Virginia of past heros of the Revolutionary days. And, the states and commonwealths who voted to depart from the Union; saw the Civil War not as a 'Civil War' but; the Second War of Independence. (Virginia's Delegate Assembly which would appoint Robert E. Lee - Commanding of all Virginia military forces). General Lee, having married into the Washington-Custis family and having his own relative branch with "Lightfoot" Lee; Washington's able commander--I'm sure the Commonwealth of Virginia had Lee on a huge 'standard' and 'example' of what was and what could be again.
Duty was no doubt drummed into Robert Edward Lee from childhood to the accepting command of all Virginia Military forces; not really seeing how he will be drawn into the command of the Confederacy on the Eastern theater. IF, Robert E. Lee would have perished in the Civil War--all the 'hearts' would have failed. Unknown effect/affect of a premature death of General Lee; however, it may have been like our 9-11.
The North/Union had grandsons of the heros of the Revolutiony War also.
I agree with Mr. McKeon; that Washington's vision was to 'create' and Lee's vision was to preserve. In Lincoln's vision it was to preserve and the Generals were often on the same wave length--to preserve the Union and grow from what had come from the Civil War.
In addition -- for Lee, others --they were able to learn and admire from the heros of the Revolutionary. I suppose, for me--it would be no different from admiring and inspiring to be much like World War II heros; which my father participated in that War. And, I'm not ashamed to say that in many ways; my father was a hero to me as well. So, why can't others in like position years prior--have inspiration from heros of a previous time. Sure beats the cartoon heros kids now have.
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
During the Civil war the Southern leaders never seemed to embrace their revolutionary past or our constitution values or the Declaration of Independence to justify their action. It seems they ran from their heritage instead on embracing it.
It is one reason why the southern cause senses so hollow back then as well as now for they never relate their cause to our Founding Fathers.
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
To me, "IF" the South and or Confederacy had 'embraced' the history of their Revolutionary past, Constitutional values and or Declaration of Independence; they would have to acknowledge and embrace the Union and or the collective unity and force that made up the United States. Since they had to find some separation of any sorts--which is hard when you want to acknowledge the Revolutionary War, etc.; what is left is what they used as a banner to rally around-was just heritage of the past. What came to the war's conclusion that the "Founding Fathers" had it correct the first time around.
The Confederacy did not use what was obvious--they only looked internal and heritage alone. Yet, the Confederacy Constitution and other governmental documents are nearly identical. Structure is nearly identical.
IF, the Confederacy had taken their grievences to the Courts, as do States and Commonwealth's today do; perhaps the war would have been within Court and with Law first, followed up by appeals and then perhaps introduction of new law into the Congressional body. Perhaps a new 'article' to the Constitution and or the Bill of Rights would have been passed.
Perhaps, impatience was the Confederacy's major flaw and listening to those who 'fanned the flames' really didn't 'fight' what wildfires they started. I reflect and think of such individuals who fanned the flames no different than those who touch off riots and slink back and watch everybody else suffer the consequences. These individuals aren't the ones who get arrested or punished; its those who carry on with the riot and or violence; in this case--The American Civil War.
I agree with you 5fish.
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
You do yourself a disservice, M.E., by characterizing your astounding insight as, "just some thoughts." I suppose I ought to at least tip my hat to 5fish, whose post, prompted yours.
I never get tired of reading some of the most innocent expressions of absolute brilliance we get on this board. I'll sit back now and let the glow envelop me.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
You say the kindest things. [insert any form of response to flattery possible]--
Actually, The Revolutionary Wars overseas and here; have all been born from Confederacy. It is 'civilization' in which tribes, groups -- states and or commonwealths 'join' in a common cause.
The brilliancy, came from the Confederacy out of necessity (Revolutionary War in the USA) but, it added the equal devotion to the common good. The Revolutionary War also used the English Law as a basis upon to set forth a compelling legal case--in a sense, presented King George a legal case to which, no previous precedence was an example to draw from. United States was the first case of 'divorce' from the 'mother country.'
Courts in a legal sense have existed for centuries--Greek often gave great legal precedences which created 'moral/ethical' law--Foundation of law, is still found in Latin--thus, we still use 'terms in Latin' -- e.g. modus operandi, habus corpus, writs, mandamus, subpeona, informa pauperous, etc.
The Magna Carta the blueprint of the "democratic' government; though not like our democracy--still gave the framework in which enlightened those overseas to whom were courted as allies against Britian - Ben Franklin was the brilliant mind behind so much of 'diplomacy' and studying all the laws in England, France and interactions with representatives of other countries. Taking the best workable of 'em all--we got our 'experiment' -- The US Constitution and The Bill of Rights, which was a marriage that still works today. It was the surgical removal of the 'nobility and or class system' from Government framed on democracy that is so unique and, perhaps why it has worked.
Our American Constitution is not perfect -- yet, who's government is? As long as there are human elements to Government; in which, President Lincoln reminded all at Gettysburg, that this Constitution, Bill of Rights, the "idea" that lives, changes, accomidates; and --it is to be tested when the 'people' desires the ideas laid out in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights--as to reassure the equality of individuals as well as the nation to reaffirm its origins of equal personal liberties. Yet, liberties still require maintainence. It is still Government for and by the people. Our Country is still young. [Smiles].
The brilliancy of the founding fathers--is that the idea that nobody, regardless would have more power than another. Tri power, where there is always an 'odd vote' and majority carries. And, they survived a great "Civil War" (American Revolutionary War)--of their own and knew the price. The price these founding fathers did not wish those thereafter to pay so dearly. I can only assume our founding fathers' desires were--or yet better put; their 'spirit of intent,' was -- "Never again."
History repeats itself--but, not totally identically but, extremely similiar. I again, can only assume our founding fathers knew, there would be a time where the 'rights' of 'the people' to test the Constitution and Bill of Rights would come. Perhaps, the lesson - There is strength in the original experiment --it has withstood the test, eighty-seven years since; it withstood another bloody test--it may come a time where there may be another test. I pray that it will be a less bloody test and at such great cost of lives.
The immigrants who fought in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, French and Indian War, the various wars up to and including the Civil War--shed their blood like those who resided here--as they believed in what America stood for. Personally, I am not so sure some immigrants can endure the test--and it will be a time when they must decide if the USA is worth living and dying for. Thus, living historians/re-enactors are that living reminder to the blood invested in the soil of what we call -- The United States of America. One Nation and un-divided.
I do believe, the majority of our Governmental leaders do mean well and as Government an authority figure, when there are those to whom rebel against the authority figure--do not love any less; much like a parent--despite all the temper tantrums, spoiled behavior and words--parents love their children and only have the 'spirit of intentions' to do right by the child and have best interests in mind. Yet, at times--a parent must let the child go and make their mistakes and be willing to welcome the child back in parental embrace. The behavior is not forgotten but, forgiven and hopes--are, that the child learns from it and grows. It is the best analogy for the human endeavor of creating a safe place to exist for those who are the next generations. It is an investment. Just as this forum invests in one another. None are better then another, we're all gifted in many ways--to which in summary; the "Confederation" works.
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
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