Civil War History - The Eastern TheaterDiscuss any and all battles, movements, and events occuring in the Eastern Theater here! This includes any actions in tha area east of the Appalachian Mountains in the vicinity of the river capitals of Richmond and Washington D.C.
Fair enough. Sherman himself needed the security of a superior officer. However, when you examine the bottom line, it would seem that the requirement for "men who obey orders and execute them promptly and on time," was a primary factor in the ultimate military successes of the Federal Armies.
Howard's failures, which you've admirably outlined, may well be because he had no orders to obey and promptly execute.
ole
Howard seems to be another Ewell just not as eccentric.
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"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
Somebody refresh my memory but the XI Corps had no pickets out before Jackson's attack correct? Or am I wrong?
IIRC, there were few pickets that were pushed out, and those were not too far out. There were some unit commanders who felt that they were safe, and there was no danger from the Confederates, whom reports placed as retreating and heading toward Richmond. There were a few regimental commanders who felt something was not right and asked for permission to entrench and fortify, and they were laughed at by their superiors. With no pickets out, and few, if any of the regiments, holding strengthened positions, the flank attack was completely a surprise, a great coup for Jackson.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
That's it. The pickets were so close to the main line by the time they were running back their the camp, the Rebs were right on their heels and the men barely had time to pick up their weapons.
Howard's failures, which you've admirably outlined, may well be because he had no orders to obey and promptly execute.
ole
Yes, it may be because of that. So the AoP was not a good place to realize his capabilities.
I assumed that this thread was mainly about the 1863 performance of corps commanders, so I took into consideration only this fragment of Howard's career.
J_Man wrote: "I think he was a capable leader, he just needed men under him who were willing to follow him and whatever orders were given". I don't state that the fellow was a complete failure- but in the Army of Potomac he simply didn't do well.
Like another Sherman's choice- McCook, who wasn't a successfull general during the civil war, but could be quite a good aide-de-corps after the war.
What about Oliver Holmes? He will become one of our Great Chief Justice's of the Supreme Court years after he served as a aid in general Grant's Overland campaign.
He turn ed down a promotion to Division commander because he felt his skills would be better used as a staff officer.
I think the truth is. He saw Grant grinding two armies together and a lot of people dieing and he wanted to avoid it.
Think of the Corp Command he would have made? A fearless one for sure!
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
What about Oliver Holmes? He will become one of our Great Chief Justice's of the Supreme Court years after he served as a aid in general Grant's Overland campaign.
He turn ed down a promotion to Division commander because he felt his skills would be better used as a staff officer.
I think the truth is. He saw Grant grinding two armies together and a lot of people dieing and he wanted to avoid it.
Think of the Corp Command he would have made? A fearless one for sure!
Five, who are you talking about?
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. enlisted in the 20th Massachusetts Infantry in 1861, fighting at Balls Bluff, where he was wounded for the first time, and campaigned through the first three years of the war. His term of enlistment ended in 1864, where he left the army with the rank of brevet Lt. Colonel.
After the war, he went on to Harvard, where he gained a law degree and rose from a lawyer to a Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court Justice. He was then nominated by Theodore Roosevelt as a Justice on the United States Supreme Court. He retired from the court in 1932, at the age of 90.
He was never offered a division Command, seeing as he never attained the rank for it.
And he never attained the role of Chief Justice of the USSC.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. enlisted in the 20th Massachusetts Infantry in 1861, fighting at Balls Bluff, where he was wounded for the first time, and campaigned through the first three years of the war. His term of enlistment ended in 1864, where he left the army with the rank of brevet Lt. Colonel.
After the war, he went on to Harvard, where he gained a law degree and rose from a lawyer to a Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court Justice. He was then nominated by Theodore Roosevelt as a Justice on the United States Supreme Court. He retired from the court in 1932, at the age of 90.
He was never offered a division Command, seeing as he never attained the rank for it.
And he never attained the role of Chief Justice of the USSC.
Yes, I am talking about Mr. Holmes.
I don't mind being corrected except he was offered a promotion to command a Division during the Overland campaign and turned it down.
I always thought he was the Chief Judge but I stand corrected.
I was just trying to stir up some civil war talk!!
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"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
Fish, I'm sorry if I sounded overly impetuous and belittling. I wasn't trying to, and realize that I might have rephrased my response in slightly less caustic tones. For that, I do apologize.
But, I must say that I have not been able to find any indication that he was offered a promotion to division command. As I stated, he left the army a brevet Lt. Col, which is a far cry from at the least a brigadier general. That is mighty hefty promotion to make. To be sure, they had been made (George Custer and Elon Farnsworth are two examples), but I haven't been able to fine it. I went through Gordon Rhea's detailed accounts of the Overland Campaign, and no mention is made as to him being offered promotion to a division commander. He was held a position as an aide to a division commander, Horatio Wright, who was promoted to corps command after the death of Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick at Spotsylvania.
If you have a source that I don't, or know where this is cited, please let me know. But, I can't find a reference to his being offered that promotion. Sorry!
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
Fish, I'm sorry if I sounded overly impetuous and belittling. I wasn't trying to, and realize that I might have rephrased my response in slightly less caustic tones. For that, I do apologize.
But, I must say that I have not been able to find any indication that he was offered a promotion to division command. As I stated, he left the army a brevet Lt. Col, which is a far cry from at the least a brigadier general. That is mighty hefty promotion to make. To be sure, they had been made (George Custer and Elon Farnsworth are two examples), but I haven't been able to fine it. I went through Gordon Rhea's detailed accounts of the Overland Campaign, and no mention is made as to him being offered promotion to a division commander. He was held a position as an aide to a division commander, Horatio Wright, who was promoted to corps command after the death of Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick at Spotsylvania.
If you have a source that I don't, or know where this is cited, please let me know. But, I can't find a reference to his being offered that promotion. Sorry!
In the book the "Last Citadel" or "Bloody Roads South" it is mention in passing I will try to find it, unless you have the books.
No, feeling hurt I should have looked everything up before i posted it. I always trying to get under peoples skin so a good banter can start.
A update as of 3-9-08 it was not in "The last Citadel" but now I have to find the other book in my house. It is somewhere in my "Citadel" hiding..
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"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
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