Civil War History - The Eastern TheaterDiscuss any and all battles, movements, and events occuring in the Eastern Theater here! This includes any actions in tha area east of the Appalachian Mountains in the vicinity of the river capitals of Richmond and Washington D.C.
For me, it would have to be Slocum that would have to go. While Sickles made a foolhardy move, he actually fought and his men fought well for being in a very precarious position. Slocum on the other hand did not do much at all to help the outcome of the battle, being in an argument over who was in command over the right wing of the AotP.
As for Howard, he should not be given as bad a rap as he has been given. Though not the most brilliant general in the Union Army, he had the intelligence to place men on Cemetery Hill to hold it as a fall back position. By putting men there, along with artillery, he helped to establish a position that the Confederates could not take. He also lead the Army of the Tennessee admirably later on in the war, gaining the trust of General Sherman and the admiration of one of the most hard fought units in the entire Union Army during the Civil War.
I'm sure when he found out that General Carl Schurz was leading the XI Corps, in battle , with Gettysburg at his back, on that first day, I would wait until they tumbled back.
Slocum couldn't control who was in command of the XI Corps, nor could he issue orders.
One must remember that surviving units of the XI Corps were transferred to South Carolina, within a month of the Gettysburg battle.
When Howard took over command at Gettysburg, after Reynolds death, Schurz took over the XI Corps. Not exactly the two great military minds of the war at that time!
Sickles is one of my favorite Civil War charachters, so I could never vote for him!
Howard-Chancellorsville, enough said?
I have actually been slowly re-reading Footes' series and just got done with Chancellorsville and when I read it, I just can't fathom what Howard was doing out there. His sole duty is to protect the flank and he just doesn't do it.
Sickles going into the Peach Orchard is a little bit different. At least he's taking a tactical initiative, now of course its contrary to Meade's plan which is why he's posted here, but at least its not just passive incompetence.....
I just can't give Sickles any credit for his movement forward. Of all the decisions made at Gettysburg, it was one of the worst that could have been made. He completely disengaged his flanks from any connection he had with the rest of the AoP. Being agressive is a good trait to have, but aggression coupled with stupidity are not good traits. He put himself out where he was exposed, and his right flank was almost all artillery, with hardly any infantry support. Sickles was a political general with hardly any experience. He was impetuous and thought he knew better than the men who were trained at West Point. Not smart.
Howard at Chancellorsville was unfortunate. He was put in a bad position and he was fed bad intelligence. Now that does not totally remove him from blame. He should have been with his troops when he was attacked. Instead he was leading Barlow's men over to the other end of the line. But his several of his brigade and division commanders should hold more blame than Howard. They were warned that there was a possibility of attack and that the flank should be protected. But they would not listen to their regimental commanders, who knew something was brewing and wanted to protect themselves. Howard did his best to rally his men, but the 11th Corps was in and of itself partially mutinous toward him, and wouldn't listen to Howard as he tried to rally. And Sickles didn't have that great a record at Chancellorsville either.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
I just can't give Sickles any credit for his movement forward. Of all the decisions made at Gettysburg, it was one of the worst that could have been made. He completely disengaged his flanks from any connection he had with the rest of the AoP. Being agressive is a good trait to have, but aggression coupled with stupidity are not good traits. He put himself out where he was exposed, and his right flank was almost all artillery, with hardly any infantry support. Sickles was a political general with hardly any experience. He was impetuous and thought he knew better than the men who were trained at West Point. Not smart.
I just personally like Sickles because he definitely lived a life. What you say is absolutely true while it definitely exposed Meade and the rest of the Army to dangers it at least had some benefits to it; specifically Sickles absorbs the blow. The decision is at least somewhat understandable inasmuch as Sickles looks out and sees some high ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Man0507
Howard at Chancellorsville was unfortunate. He was put in a bad position and he was fed bad intelligence. Now that does not totally remove him from blame. He should have been with his troops when he was attacked. Instead he was leading Barlow's men over to the other end of the line. But his several of his brigade and division commanders should hold more blame than Howard. They were warned that there was a possibility of attack and that the flank should be protected. But they would not listen to their regimental commanders, who knew something was brewing and wanted to protect themselves. Howard did his best to rally his men, but the 11th Corps was in and of itself partially mutinous toward him, and wouldn't listen to Howard as he tried to rally. And Sickles didn't have that great a record at Chancellorsville either.
Yes, they should have been, but once again, all the blame cannot be laid directly at Howards feet. Yes, he should have been with his men at all times. How hard is it to get a staff officer to lead a brigade to their position? So I don't hold Howard perfectly blameless. But almost his entire corps command structure is to blame. General Devens, who held the flank, should have refused it. Now, Howard should have inspected the lines (don't remember if he did or not) and if the flank hadn't been refused, he should have ordered it so. But Devens should have done it on his own initiative, being a division commander. His men were constantly coming to him, saying that there were Confederates off of their flank, and asking him what to do. However, he, like Howard, believed that orders should come down the chain of command, not done on the whim of a division, brigade or regimental commander. So its not just Howards fault. There are alot of men at fault here. Howard isn't my favorite general, but I don't think he was the worst.
I harbor no animosity at Sickles. I mean, one can have his or her favorite commander, and there is nothing I or anyone else can say. I hope that I haven't come across that way. If I did, I apologize. I just see Sickles as a fundementally flawed man. Thats always how I have viewed him. I mean, killing a man and claiming temporary insanity to get off; I just don't agree with it. Men like Sickles more often than not irk me to no end. But hey, you are entitled to your opinion, and I don't fault you one bit. Its not a right or wrong thing.
Best regards,
J_Man
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
He has plenty of flaws, but that is what makes him so interesting. Some of them are indefensible. He was cavorting with prostitutes while his wife was pregnant. He met her when he was 33 and she was 15 (wikipedia says that she was a ‘mature’ 15) and apparently by the standards of the day it was enough to make Sickles claim a later birth year to make himself younger.
He was also corrupt. Apparently wikipedia claims that he stole the money for his own Gettysburg monument!
Of course that also brings us to one of his most famous crimes, the murder of his wife’s lover, in which he is defended by Stanton and is successful in pleading temporary insanity.
All of the colorful stuff aside, I will give my best Sickles defense of his actions at Gettysburg.
The first thing to consider is whether Sickles actually disobeyed orders. This is clear. We all know that Meade orders Sickles to anchor the Union left and to extend the Union left to Little Round Top.
The second thing that we need to consider is why Sickles decided to reach out and deploy in the Peach Orchard. It seems clear that Sickles looks out and sees higher ground at the Peach Orchard and isn’t particularly thrilled about his position at Cemetery Ridge. This is at least somewhat understandable though Meade, when he confronts Sickles about the salient that he has created notes that if he continues to advance he will continually find higher ground until he reaches the mountains.
But what I think is most important to consider is whether this movement actually acts to unhinge the Federal position.
Typically, the argument is that Sickles’ movement leaves Little Round Top unoccupied and obviously, if captured by the Confederates can unhinge the position if the Confederates get artillery onto the ridge.
On this map, you can clearly see Hood going around Sickles’ left toward an unoccupied Little Round Top.
However, and this is essentially the heart of my defense of Sickles’ actions on that day: Lee’s original plan is to strike the Federal left flank by moving up the Emmitsburg Road. He makes this plan BEFORE Sickles is in the Peach Orchard; when the left flank of the Army of the Potomac is essentially Hancock.
“McLaws and Hood arrived to find Sickles' III Corps occupying the Peach Orchard to the northeast and extending to the Devil's Den. Hood reasoned that since the situation had changed, he would instead swing up and around the Round Tops and attack the Union rear along Cemetery Ridge. Hood disobeyed strict orders to attack along Emmitsburg Road (where Lee and Longstreet believed there were minimal Union troops).” (I have read this elsewhere, but this source is more convenient for an online posting)
It seems to me that the ONLY reason why Hood is making a charge for Little Round Top is because Sickles has been interposed and I am assuming Hood is interpreting his orders from Lee to outflank the Federal army, not just to blindly follow the order and move up the Emmitsburg Road.
“Hood came upon the Union's southern flank only to find Sickles' III Corps in force along Emmitsburg Road. The Union's southern flank had been anchored in Devil's Den - this left the two Round Tops unoccupied. Hood sent word to Longstreet to press a change of orders and swing around further to the south. Instead, Longstreet replied that Lee's orders were clear and called for Hood to attack up Emmitsburg Road. Twice again Hood asked Longstreet to reconsider the situation - the third time officially protesting the order (something he had never done in his career), but every time he was denied. Given to common sense, but in complete disregard of orders, Hood ignored Longstreet and marched eastward to attack Devil's Den and up the Big Round Top.”
Hood proceeds to make the maneuver anyway!
Now of course we get into the area of speculation. Essentially what happens if Sickles had in fact remained in position. Some would say that it would have been an even larger Federal victory, others would say that the Confederates would have won day 2. We’ll never know for sure of course because it didn’t happen. I am of the opinion that the Confederates wind up placing a lot of firepower against the Federal ‘left flank’ which on day 2 becomes the Federal center, as the Federal army extends its flank ****her south. I say this because Hood never would’ve encountered Sickles and McLaws, Hood and Anderson would’ve landed on the Federal center.
You guys have been around the forum longer, so you'll see things pop up more than once. Nevertheless, you have to remember that 'new bloods' still (may) want to discuss it. One of the reasons why I post here is because I find the Civil War fascinating, but ALL people I actually have to deal with on a daily basis don't, so I really have no conversational outlet.
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