Civil War History - The Eastern TheaterDiscuss any and all battles, movements, and events occuring in the Eastern Theater here! This includes any actions in tha area east of the Appalachian Mountains in the vicinity of the river capitals of Richmond and Washington D.C.
Essentially we are arguing a point of semantics as to what constitutes a 'great victory.' I contend it is a matter of how the fight on the field was handled; its' relative merit to the end it served important but secondarily considered. Spartan is running with a 'great victory' as being one which primarily furthers a purpose beyond the fighting on the field. This point can be argued endlessly, with noone being wrong. However one must not focus too narrowly on his definition. I am afraid I cannot accept Matthew's very narrow defintion.
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
Ed, I will dot the "i" and cross the "t" on the fact that this discussion has definitely run its course. I think we can all agree at the very least that Lee fought a magnificient battle while at most acknowledging the victory was not all it could have been. Respectfully, Spartan
And Spartan takes the rebound and scores! Yup. Semantics. It cannot be denied that Lee conducted a world-class operation, even with the cooperation of Hooker. That some might look at the affair's long-term impact does not detract from the operation.
Excellent discussion, gentlemen. Most enjoyable.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Gentlemen, north and south, I implore you to remember that with civil war there was no victory. Napoleonic combat was idiotic as well. Even dumb ol' N.B. Forrest recognized that. Taking 25,000 men to the field on opposing sides and losing 8,000 and 9,000 respectively didn't make for a victory, it simply meant that 17,000 men would not return to their homes. Victory was not achieved in your defined sense. The war simply ended when both sides were out of gas. As Forrest replied upon mounting his surviving horse (no. 30)after surrender at Citronelle, Alabama, "You boys do what you ****ed well please. I'm a going home." Survival was the only victory to be achieved in this horrible war. Both mentally and physically, I doubt that was completely possible.
Hey Larry, this may be a tired subject for you but heading down from St Louis area soon on biz in the great state of TN. Approx 2.5 days, hopefully 10% biz 90% pleasure. Never been down there, starting from Nashville give this first timer a hint of what he can accomplish in a couple days CW touring. Not afraid to do a little extra driving at $3 a gallon. Respectfully, Spartan
Larry, you are too severe by half. There are none of us saying 'Hooray- war!' The fact is wars are fought. This civil war, all civil wars happen because the sides feel they have something to fight for, a reason to resort to war. Truly one can say in war all lose- without question, in all wars something is lost, very often things of great value. Sometimes truly there is no positive outcome, but a flat out loss all around. But still wars are fought. Both the North and South believed strongly enough that this war must be fought. We have debated to great lengths on this board could the war have been avoided; myself, I don't see how we could have done what they couldn't. As it is, 145 years after the fact, we still fight with great vigor the battles of their day; we engage in verbal fisticuffs, and often enough emotion and intolerance outweighs reflection and reason. 145 years later!!! What I'm trying to say is that there comes times when wars must be fought. We are fortunate in this country to have very few civil wars, unlike say, our neighbor to the south, Mexico, which has suffered an epidemic of civil war in its' unfortunate history.
Wars being fought means victories are gained. Both sides, all lose something to some extent. But victories are indeed gained. Why should we lament or be at fault for examining those victories, what they are and what they mean?
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
Spartan: Larry can narrow your choices considerably, but see if you can stretch those days! Nashville is enough to occupy all your time. A little south is Franklin; a skip south of that is Spring Hill. A hop to the east is Murphreesboro. A small jump south of that is Chattanooga and a step beyond that, Chickamauga. And Shiloh isn't that far west -- I think I calculated like 41 miles.
Find a way to spend 2 weeks. Wreck your car and rent one, pleading difficulties and the need to hang around by order of the constabulary. At least arrange things so your time incorporates the weekend, then call in sick Monday.
You'll be in prime country. Make the most of it.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Ole: Gonna see if I can stretch things out a bit on this trip. I knew going in there was too much to cover on the first pass just trying to make the most out of the time I've got.
Respectfully,
Spartan
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