Custer

[custersluck13]

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quote=larry_cockerham]I saw a most interesting presentation on our local public tv station this weekend from John Siegenthaller's War on Words, in which the author of a new book Lost Triumph or something close to that, claims that Custer's charge at Gettysburg southeast of Culp's Hill was the reason for JEB Stuart not being able to complete his appointed mission, namely to close the pincher move opposite the ill-fated Pickett's charge. This was / is an obvious attempt to give Lee credit for some planning beyond the executed records of the battle. Has anyone read this book?

[/quote]
I think you and I went about this on another thread somewhere, didn't we Larry? Yeah..I think Lee was..and I believe it is very possible Custer is the most overlooked played on that battlefield. JMO. (Similie means Im not totally sure on this and would love to see more imput on this! TY!

[custersluck13]

By his actions in moving Benteen, Reno and his force towards the supposed location of the Indian villages, he was not prepared to wait for reinforcements. All the glory of victory would be his alone.

To me, this has always been one of the most perplexing battles to study. Mainly because Custer, and nobody from his command, save one horse, survived. My impression is Custer was looking for a enveloping movement. A diversion by Reno, a flank movement by Benteen, but Custer would get the glory of the main point of attack. The fault I find is two fold..Yes Custer did ignore what intelligence he did have...now seems obvious, to him, at the time, he had reasons for doubting it...at the point of contact..Reno, as the OIC, simply dissolved. He lost total control. Benteen was not a officer to seize the initiative. Custer, bold and reckless he may have been, I think was let down by his own experience..in days past, he had competent field commanders about him..here he didnt...and was left to his own fate..still, what motivated him to send a Italian speaking courier defies imagination. Was it Benteen just didnt understand the gravity of the situation? Quite possiably. But you know, and I know, once that ball of yarn starts to unravel...it does...

[Freddy]

Reno attacked the Southern end of the village stopping to fight dismounted about .75 miles from Sitting Bull's Unkpapa circle at 3:15PM. Reno retreated after 10 minutes and with only 4 casualties from his three troops/companies. Had Reno stayed and fought in the open he likely would have been overrun. If he had not stopped and pressed his attack to the village he may have succeeded in setting the village to flight. He also likely would have been routed if the other two columns did not join the attack.

Benteen swept left with three troops and found nothing of interest. No fleeing/escaping Indians were found as the conventional wisdom expected. Benteen then disobeyed a written order from his commander, Custer, to join in the attack and bring the pack train with an additional troop.

Custer planned to attack the Northern end of the village, but it was much longer than he expected. His timing for a coordinated attack was now off.

Reno had disengaged and retreated to the river and then to higher ground.

Benteen joined Reno on the hill and took over command as Reno was too shaken to command at 4:20PM.

Captain Weir, a Custer man, decided to make an attempt to rescue Custer as Benteen's order from Custer required. The entire command on the hill followed Weir. They proceeded about a mile and halted. Sensing the odds were not good that they could relieve Custer, who with his command were likely already dead by 5:30PM when Weir retreated back to the hill as the Indians/Lakota Sioux attacked them for 2 days.

Custer's plan may have worked if the Indians behaved as conventional wisdom said they would. Instead they attacked. Only a perfectly coordinated plan may have worked, but the village was too huge and timing was thrown off so that the divided regiment attacked separately, but not simultaneously. They were doomed out in the open.

Terry and Gibbon saved the rest of the regiment left on the hill short of water and ammunition and under constant attack by a determined enemy.

[custersluck13]

Freddy

That is pretty much my take on it as well. Bottom line is, it was one of those days if it could go wrong, it went wrong. I really dont believe Custer had any real grasp of what he faced out there. He may have been brash to the point of reckless at times, but those very tactics had usually worked for him before. Still, his Indian scouts are said to have known. One has to think they did.

Benteens failure to obey those orders has always been a subject of much debate. Ive read people say he purposely left Custer on a limb out of spite..which, if true, would certainly be cause for a firing squad, but I dont think that could ever be proven. I just think he thought he was doing what he had to do, still, that is little better.

Reno really flipped out out there. He spent the rest of his years trying to regain his reputation, which of course, he never did.

All in all, this a fight that never should have been, and too many troopers paid dearly for it. Thank you for your outstanding assessment, Freddy!

[Freddy]

You are welcome,
Yeah the whole campaign was a disaster. From Crook's defeat at the Rosebud on June 17, lack of communication between Crook and Terry, from Reno's failed reconissance down the Yellowstone, Powder, and Big Horn rivers, from Gibbon and Terry's lack of Indian fighting experience, and from the distance involved in the campaign it is amazing they all did not lose their hair. Custer should have listened to Bloody Knife, Mitch Boyer, and Curley. Those 264 or 265 men and boys paid a high price for their part in enslaving a proud and beautiful people.

[custersluck13]

My girlfriend is 100% Ojibwe...I didnt notice she was enslaved. Ill be more careful to look out for that. Come to think of it, my first gunner in Desert Storm was Apache. Dang...I shoulda told him he was a slave too. Your knowledge level of Custer in my opinion just dropped dramatically. If you know anything of Custer, you know he was no hater of Indians. Not getting down on you, but maybe I am. PC and history do not mix, brother. But I did like your writing. Very well thought out and presented.

[ole]

The first mistake in the campaign was the decision to send troops to round up the "hostiles" without taking the time to estimate how many there were. A large portion of the encampment on Little Big Horn were there for the summer and fully intended to return to the reservations come winter. (That they must return immediately was a matter of bureaucratic insistence and the letter of the lawgiver--not the government but government agents who knew nothing about Indians and cared less.)

Custer pretty much always leapt first and looked later. AT LBH, his luck ran out. He didn't expect so large an encampment. He did expect them to flee with their families, but he caught them short of time to do that, and he didn't want them to -- he intended to box them in and, with their families present, drop their arms and return to the reservation rather than risk their families in a fight. Trouble was, there were about 8 times as many as he expected.

His appearance on the hills above the center of the camp (not the north end, as he expected) while Reno was attacking the south end gave the braves one choice: fight to protect their families instead of flee with them--he's up there; they can attack him without fighting among the women and children. Bad timing. Bad intelligence. Bad judgement. Bad luck.

The Lakotah's victory that day turned out to be fatal. Whatever friends they had (and there was some building sympathy turned in their direction) were immediately shouted down and shoved aside.

Custer was simply a fearless career fighting man who followed his reckless bravery to its logical conclusion. We don't have to agree that he was a fool, or that his mission was evil. Just a soldier doing his job. Like Johnny Reb.

ole

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by custersluck13

My girlfriend is 100% Ojibwe...I didnt notice she was enslaved. Ill be more careful to look out for that. Come to think of it, my first gunner in Desert Storm was Apache. Dang...I shoulda told him he was a slave too. Your knowledge level of Custer in my opinion just dropped dramatically. If you know anything of Custer, you know he was no hater of Indians. Not getting down on you, but maybe I am. PC and history do not mix, brother. But I did like your writing. Very well thought out and presented.

First, I do not think there was any Ojibwe Indians on the Greasy Grass that day. Second, I was referring to Grant's policy stemming from the ultimatum that came out of the secret meeting in September 1875 that the plains Tribes must be put on reservations. That is slavery. They were a proud people on their own land that even the US government had acknowledged in several treaties. Just because Red Cloud and several other chiefs signed treaties allowing themselves to be put on reservations it was not binding on Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, Gall, Rain-in-the-Face, American Horse, and thousands of their fellow Indians who chose to be free to roam the plains. After 1877 almost all Plains Indians, except Sitting Bull and his followers in Canada, were placed on reservations to learn the White man's culture, farming, religion, and language. Chief Joseph and his Nez Perce fled over 1,000 miles to escape capture and were caught a few miles South of Canada. Indians were not allowed to become citizens and to vote until 1924. For lack of a better word "slavery" does not seem too harsh. I know Custer admired the Indians and was only following orders as did in 1868 along the Wa****a River. It was the US government's Indian policy that was brutal and unjust and it was the Indians, settlers, and soldiers who paid for that policy with their blood.

[custersluck13]

Freddy

Thank you for your reply. I did not mean to imply Ojibwe Indians were at a Sioux battle. I was simply trying to knock off your rather strange remark about enslaving indians. Yes, sir...I am aware of the "Trail of Tears"....Custer was the first to attack the US policy concerning Indian affairs. For lack of a better word, I dont see slavery in any connotation with American Indians. Dual citizenship, rights to gaming faciluties and a host of other priveldges seems to have more than made up for past injustices. What would you like to add?

[ole]

Freddy:

You might consider leaving that argument by the wayside. There is no doubt that the government treated the indigenous peoples quite shabbily. However, we are all quite fat and happy that the area between the Missouri and Pacific is productive and prosperous.

The plight of the aboriginal Americans was an accomplished fact. There was no way they could stand against or coexist with the inevitable.

We can admit that the takeover wasn't nice and might have been handled better. But we can't demonstrate an accommodation of the open-range style of the Native-American with the drive for the yeoman farmer or rancher. White vs. Red has nothing to do with it. The Native American got the short end of the stick. And when was it ever different?

Civilization, like it or not, like time, marches on. Frequently over the wishes of those who might hold another idea. Raging against the coming of the night doesn't stop it.

Let's see....have I used up my quota of cliches?

I'll try for a summation.

The Native American is an example of how the world works. There is no constancy. It is grow or die. They got onto the die end.

Lest you take me wrong, I have the highest possible respect for the Native American Aboriginal Indigenous people. I'm constantly distressed with their treatment. But their time in evolution's clock had expired. Ain't no way to pretty it up past that. At least, not that I've seen.

ole