Civil War History - The Eastern TheaterDiscuss any and all battles, movements, and events occuring in the Eastern Theater here! This includes any actions in tha area east of the Appalachian Mountains in the vicinity of the river capitals of Richmond and Washington D.C.
And he wrote the AAR instead of Chamberlin? Would the 83d PA(his old regiment) be in the movies? How many Confederate charges had this unit and the 44th NY withstood before the 20th Maine was even attacked? They fought an equal force from superior position, they should have won. The other regiments in the brigade had no less time to prepare, and fought longer then the 20th. If the center breaks, the 20th is cut off, surrounded and, in a Confederate prison and you never hear another word about them. Ergo, if the 140th NY doesn't come to the 16th MI's rescue, war's over. What do you think?
Strong position, 20 Maine? I thought the other units you refer to had stronger positions on LRT after seeing the field first hand. 20 Maine had a horrible position in comparison. The other points I can't dispute.
Next time you go. Stand at Maine's monument (where their colors were) and look first over your left shoulder. The ground there drops sharply off to the front of what would have been their left wing. now look down to your front, imagine the road isn't there and the ground follows the steep drop off and the gentle slope towards the base of BRT. Most all of the large boulders which were there during the fight were removed to acommodate either the trolly tracks or the new road. The 83d & 44th kept their casualties lower, being "old veteran" regiments by kneeling behind the rocks. If you stand in the center of the 83rd's flank markers, which are 20 yards in front of their monument, you'll find the ground there and in front of the 44th's flank markers almost flat. However, without a doubt, the 16th had the best position. Located near the crest, up and behind the right of the 44th. If you can get to the park in winter it's easier to see the line's of Union brigades almost anywhere in the park. You havn't convinced me.
The first time I made the long trek to G'burg and looked at the 20th Maine's position, I thought to myself, "Give me 350 or so men, and I can hold this ground." It is a very defensible spot. Now, the bayonet charge was another thing. And I have read some primary source evidence (sorry don't remember where) that Col. Chamberlain was not the officer that first thought of charging down the hill.
In his Memiors(however you spell a book about yourself and stuff you did)"Passing of Armies" He describes how he never got the order to more then the men around the colors, it was too loud. The "swinging gate" just happened due to the ground and those who saw things moving first. The Gettysburg movie, being a movie, not history, added the meeting of officers so many accept as reality. It makes sense to pull all of you line officers away from their men in the middle of a fight doesn't it? Yea, right.
There was a special on the Discovery Channel not too long ago that stated the same thing Guest said, that a lot of Lee's veterans in Pickett's charge just looked at the field and turned around or just lay down as not to get shot! Makes a lot of sense to me.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I pulled out my video copy of said show "History Investigated, Pickett's Charge." The folks refute the evidence that some unit's "refused to participate" near the end of the show. Stating there is no historical evidence from the official records or from first person accounts to support this statement, Paraphrased of course. I remember I saved it because of the canister shots from the 3 inch ordinance rifle. Still turns my stomach when I see it. I've seen pics of what happens to a standing field of corn when you fire double canister from a 12 pound Napoleon in to it. Yeeesch. As far as officers holding group meetings during battles, I think runners with instructions would be closer to what happened. Mr Guests thought's on the troop dispositions are incredibly wrong. There were literally no troops on Cemetery Ridge at 4pm on July 2 from Little Round top to about 100yards to the left of the "Copse of Trees." That's where Sickle's men were supposed to be. And, will reiterate, I can find no historical information in the volumes I own to suggest Confederate Veterans refused to participate in Longstreet's assault of July 3rd. I believe we're only talking about Vincent's Brigade and it's place in history. I'd be glad to jump in on a discussion about Longstreet's assault if you wish. I just finished another book on Gettysburg day 3.
While I am a fan of JL Chamberlain, and as inspiring and heroic as the movie "Gettysburg" is, everytime I watch I find one more historical inaccuracy. If one wants to read a good book on the 20th ME at LRT, read "Stand Firm Ye Boys From Maine." I found it to be quite informative on the 20th's role during the battle, which being important b/c they were the extreme left of the army, the entire defense of LRT was key to victory on the 2nd day.
As to the title of the thread itself, I don't really think that the survival of Col. Vincent would have had a significant impact on the outcome of the war. If he had survived, he may have risen to command a division, but that is probably about as high as he would have gone. But that is just my opinion and pure speculation. He may have risen higher, seeing as Chamberlain did, even though it wasn't until the final weeks of the war.
Chamberlain had one advantage over many of his fellow officers. As a professor of rhetoric, he lived by the pen. Equally meritous is the forgotten Greene who defended Culp's Hill. Had Greene failed, the Union right flank would have been thrown open. Yet Greene was a modest man not given to bragging or hoisting himself into the public's eye. Certainly Chamberlain is a hero, but no less a hero than Greene, Strong Vincent who rushed his brigade up there without orders, Weed who arrived in time to seal the breach created when elements of the 16th Michigan broke, the 1st Minnesota who bought 10 minutes for Hancock, and Pennsylvania Emergency Militia 4th Sergeant William Rupp who hid in the cellar of his own house when he was cut off during the retreat to Culp's Hill.
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