Civil War History - The Eastern TheaterDiscuss any and all battles, movements, and events occuring in the Eastern Theater here! This includes any actions in tha area east of the Appalachian Mountains in the vicinity of the river capitals of Richmond and Washington D.C.
Jackson or Longstreet well I would take Jackson over longstreet any time. It was interesting how Defense by many was the way to go instead of offense by the members. Also that Jackson was over rated. Lets take second Manassas for example Jackson Defended the unfinished railroad. He is hit time and time again his men are running low on ammo so they go to using rocks and hold the area. Now some will say that the Union screwed up there hitting with only parts of the army. The fire that Jackson boys went up against the Wisconsin boys at the start was so close. As the battle Jackson has his Generals hold till Longstreet shows with his army. Then what sit and wait and wait and wait. If longstreet had acted quickly he could have crushed the yankees between him and Jackson. Now Lee was there and it has been said he may have held Longstreet up but man Lee must not have to much faith in him. Why would I say this well He didn't take Longstreets advice about going around the flank at Gettysburg. I believe when Jackson was on the Defense he had to take more attacks then Longstreet would. He would be hit overe and over again. The West Woods again at Sharpsburg Jackson was pounded and held. Also you can't just use Jackson and Longstreet look at the Generals that fought under them. A.P. Hill at Sharpsburg after the long march from Harpers Ferry stops Burnside. The Valley campaign with Jackson speaks volumes for him. I guess in the end If you like Jackson you will find things to back him and if you like Longstreet you can do the same.
Both Jackson and Longstreet had their faults, and it came out quite clearly at times. Jackson's treatment of Garnett at Kernstown was uncalled for and only succeeded in needlessly alienating Garnett from him, same is true of Powell Hill. Longstreet's attempt to blame Capt. Johnson for his sluggishness at Gettysburg and that whole McLaws tiff out west did nothing to aid their reputations. That being said, Jackson's audacious attacks generally worked, when the men had ammo. Longstreet's strategy of fighting defensively and then counterattacking when the enemy is weak is pure Sun Tzu. Jackson's inspiration is the same, but only a different dictum, prefering to mystify and cut off the enemy instead of forcing him to attack you.
Respectfully,
Matt
Last edited by milhistbuff1; 12-15-2005 at 06:07 PM.
As the battle Jackson has his Generals hold till Longstreet shows with his army. Then what sit and wait and wait and wait. If longstreet had acted quickly he could have crushed the yankees between him and Jackson.
Not true. In fact, Longstreet was correct in waiting. His waiting allowed Porter to become overextended. Had he pitched in quickly, he would have ran into the PA Reserves. By waiting, the Reserves were dispatched to aid Porter's attacks between the Deep Cut and the Dump.
Now Lee was there and it has been said he may have held Longstreet up but man Lee must not have to much faith in him. Why would I say this well He didn't take Longstreets advice about going around the flank at Gettysburg.
Lee calling Longstreet his Old War Horse seems like a pretty good endorsement of trust to me.
Respectfully
Jackson was a poor tactical commander. Longstreet was superior in that regard.
__________________ Up men, and to your post! And let no man forget today that you are from old Virginia!
Longstreet's strategy of fighting defensively and then counterattacking when the enemy is week is pure Sun Tzu.
I don't see how it can still be said that Longstreet was a defensive general. Think of all the attacks he launched. These weren't sword and shield maneuvers. They were offensive strikes pure and simple.
Respectfully
__________________ Up men, and to your post! And let no man forget today that you are from old Virginia!
Just was wondering what makes you say Jackson was a poor tactical commander. And do you believe Longstreets Defense was a better plan then going with the offensive ways.
nbforrest,
Tactically, you are correct, but strategically, Longstreet was one to look for a Pipe Creek or Little Round Top type line, then attack, once the CSA was in a superior position. By defensive, i mean the military application of Davis's let the north bleed until its gives up. Any attack suggested by Longstreet at their weakest point, or one most likely to cause the entire line to collapse, ie going around the right at Gettysburg, or rolling up Porter when he overextended himself without ample reserves at 2nd battle of Bull run.
Respectfully,
Matt
Last edited by milhistbuff1; 12-15-2005 at 06:37 PM.
Just was wondering what makes you say Jackson was a poor tactical commander. And do you believe Longstreets Defense was a better plan then going with the offensive ways.
Respectfully,
Stoney
Jackson could think on the big scale but once the battle started he was lost. Think of his battles...Kernstown, McDowell, Port Republic, Cedar Mountain...horrible messes...a couple of those almost resulted in disaster...they were won by hard fighting and good luck (and he was just plain whipped at Kernstown and not much better at McDowell)
He totally screwed up at Mechanicsville and White Oak Swamp.
2nd Manassas and Antietam were adequete if unremarkable.
Fredericksburg he improperly aligned his forces and allowed Meade to roll up part of his line.
Chancellorsville, his attack did not accomplish much. It was Stuart the next day who forced Hooker back.
And as a war strategy in VA, no Longstreet's defensive theory was not the proper strategy. Lee had the right idea.
Respectfully
__________________ Up men, and to your post! And let no man forget today that you are from old Virginia!
The problem was, Lee attacked too often, drew down his strength. Attack, yes, but do so intelligently ie flank or rear. Too many of Lee's assaults were directly into enemy lines that were ready to recieve a frontal attack. a few examples, AP+ DH Hill towards an entrenched and dug in Porter at Mechanicsville/ Beaver dam creek 1862 PPT charge at Gettysburg stone wall, Anderson against Hancock Wilderness natural cover /wooden defenses 1864,
Compare that to what Longstreet advocated or did. Hit Porter's flank 2nd Manasas, go to the right of Little Round Top at Gettysburg, utilize the RR cut going east towards Fredericksburg to halt Hancock's charge towards Hill's lines, utilizing skirmish lines that would not be firing blindly in the woods, unlike Hancock's men.
Respectfully
Matt
Last edited by milhistbuff1; 12-15-2005 at 08:31 PM.
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