1863 Zouave rifle at reenactments

[TexasReb]

I've been reenacting for about a year. I've been told that my T/C Hawken wouldn't be allowed at National events. I found a great deal on a 1863 Remington 2 band rifle. Now I've been told that they weren't issued during the Civil War. Does that mean I can't use the 1863 Zouave rifle at National events either?

[M E Wolf]

Dear TexasReb,

Welcome to the Civil War Talk Forums.

Hopefully, a re-enactor or more will speak up--as well as our military ordnance experts!

Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf

[johan_steele]

You've hit upon one of my pet peeves. The Zouve is not allowed at any National event, it isn't allowed at any event w/ standards that I know of. Neither is the Hawken. Both weapons scream poorly research impression and usually get those who carry them branded w/ a rather disparaging title.

There is no conclusive evidence that the Zouve ever saw service except perhaps on guard duty during the war. A few might have been in the trenches at Petersburg. The Hawken can at least claim some very limited use... by US sharpshooters in the west.

As the CS never captured any, never built anything w/ more than a vague passing resemblence to the Zouve it has no place in any kind of CS impression.

Put the money you might spend on a Zouve towards a M1842, P53, P56, P58, M1861/63 series, M1841, Richmond etc. There are plenty out there and you don't have to spend a fortune to get something appropriate.

I would suggest researching what the unit you portray actually carried and go that route. Your weapon is the most expensive part of your kit, make it a worthwhile investment.

[gary]

Like Johan suggested, find a unit and you'll get a free mentor (or a platoon of mentors) and they'll tell you what arm was carried by that unit.

[samgrant]

[quote=johan_steele;100680]
There is no conclusive evidence that the Zouve ever saw service except perhaps on guard duty during the war. A few might have been in the trenches at Petersburg.
quote]

Is this so? I seem to recall some references to Zouave units in battles, mostly as being especially good targets.

?


---

[M E Wolf]

Dear List Members;

I do know in researching the Northeastern Virginia area during the American Civil War; the Zouaves were active and one died pulling down the Confederate flag from the Marshall house in Alexandria, VA. They would also be assigned to a Brigade at the First Battle of Manassas/Bull Run.

O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 2 [S# 2] -- CHAPTER IX.
Advance of Union Army into Virginia and occupation of Arlington Heights and Alexandria.
No. 4. -- Report of Lieut. Col. N. L. Farnham, First Zouaves, New York Militia.
ALEXANDRIA, VA., May 24, 1861--5.18 p.m.
SIR: It is my painful duty to inform you that Colonel Ellsworth, late commanding officer of the First Zouave Regiment, New York Militia, is no more. He was assassinated at the Marshall House after our troops had taken possession of the city.
I am ignorant of the details of the orders issued to the regiment, and await further instructions. My men are posted advantageously in the streets.
I remain, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
NOAH L. FARNHAM,
Lieutenant-Colonel, Commanding First Zouaves.
Brig. Gen. MANSFIELD,
Commanding Department, Washington.
-----
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 2 [S# 2] -- CHAPTER IX.
Engagement at Big Bethel, or Bethel Church, Va.
No. 11. -- Report of Maj. E. B. Montague, commanding Virginia Battalion.
[excerpt]
A very short time after the firing commenced I received an order to direct one of my companies, the Chatham Grays, under the command of Captain Werth, to defend a ford one mile below the bridge against the first battalion of the New York Zouave Regiment, and I saw no more of the company until after the fight.
---------------------------------
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 2 [S# 2] -- CHAPTER IX.
Engagement at Big Bethel, or Bethel Church, Va.
No. 12. -- Reports of Capt. W. H. Werth, commanding Chatham Grays.
[excerpt]
CAMP YORKTOWN, June 13, 1861.
[excerpt]
A portion of the Fifth New York Zouave Regiment (three companies) was at this time advancing down the opposite bank of the stream for the purpose of crossing the ford, and thereby turn our left flank. I saw the movement, and at once took double quick and made the distance of over a mile in about nine minutes beating the zouaves, and getting in position at the ford in time to cause them to halt. I obstructed the ford in all conceivable ways by felling trees, &c., and then placed my first platoon on the northwest side, trader cover of an old mill-dam, whilst my second platoon I placed in ambush on the opposite side, where the road leading to the ford could have been raked for four hundred yards with deadly effect.
---------------------------------
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 2 [S# 2] -- CHAPTER IX.
JULY 16-22, 1861.--The Bull Run, or Manassas, Campaign, Virginia.
No. 7. -- Report of Maj. John G. Barnard, U.S. Corps of Engineers.
[excerpt]
When we reached the front of Hunter's column, the battle was just commencing. The events of the battle-field will be described in the reports you will receive from other quarters. I was near the commanding general until some time after the arrival of Sherman's brigade on our left. Being accidentally separated, I saw yourself on the right, and, joining you, we observed for some time the action on the heights, where the enemy made his final and successful stand. As we were observing, the zouave regiment of Heintzelman was driven back, leaving Ricketts' battery, upon which we observed the enemy charge.
--------------------------------------
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 5 [S# 5]
NOVEMBER 14-22, 1861.--Expedition through Accomac and Northampton Counties, Virginia.
No. 2. -- Reports of Maj. Gen. John A. Dix, U. S. Army.
[excerpt]
In order to overawe opposition, I propose to send a force of 3,500 men. The troops sent from here on Monday and General Lockwood's command will amount to about that number. If I find the latter too raw, I can send 500 of the Zouave Regiment from Federal Hill and an equal number from some other regiment here, so as to have a well-trained force of 2,500 men with the expedition. They can be spared for ten days or a fortnight, and as they have been in camp several months, a little service in the field will be useful to them.
-----------------------------------------
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 9 [S# 9]
CORRESPONDENCE. ORDERS, AND RETURNS RELATING SPECIALLY TO OPERATIONS IN SOUTHEASTERN VIRGINIA FROM JANUARY 11 TO MARCH 17, 1862.
CONFEDERATE CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.
Organization of the troops in the Department of the Peninsula, commanded by Maj. Gen. J. Bankhead Magruder, C. S. Army, January 31, 1862.
Yorktown, vicinity, and Ship Point.
FIRST DIVISION.
Brig. Gen. G. J. RAINS, commanding.
13th Alabama.
2d Florida.
6th Georgia.
23d Georgia.
14th Louisiana.
Louisiana Zouave Battalion.
2d Mississippi.
15th North Carolina.
32d Virginia (2 companies).
53d Virginia (8 companies).
115th Virginia Militia.
Maurin's Louisiana Battery.
Nelson's battery.
1st Virginia (3 companies) Artillery.
--------------------------------------------
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XIX/2 [S# 28]
Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating To Operations In Northern Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, And Pennsylvania, From September 3 To November 14, 1862.
UNION CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.--#15
NEW YORK, November 3, 1862.
Brig. Gen. M. C. MEIGS,
Quartermaster-General, U.S. Army, Washington, D.C.:
GENERAL: In reply to your telegram of this date, directing me to report the gross quantities of supplies shipped by me to the army operating about Harper's Ferry, Frederick, Sharpsburg, Williamsport, &c., since the 17th September, I send you the following:
In reply to your telegram to-day, there were shipped on 10th October 20,000 blankets, in 200 bales, and 10,000 shelter-tents, h: 134 cases, to Colonel Ingalls, Harper's Ferry; on the 23d October, 7,500 lined blouses and 7,500 knit jackets, in 116 cases, to Captain Bliss, Harper's Ferry; on October 29, 1,100 Zouave uniforms, in 25 cases, to Capt. P. P Pitkin, for Colonel Hawkins' regiment New York Volunteers, Berlin. The cases averaged 20 feet in bulk and the bales 30 feet.
I am, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant.
D. H. VINTON,
Lieutenant-Colonel and Deputy Quartermaster. General.
--------------------------------------------------
Dyer's Compendium, Pt. 3 (Regimental Histories)
PENNSYLVANIA VOLUNTEERS.
2nd REGIMENT INFANTRY ("FIRE ZOUAVE REGIMENT").
Organized at Philadelphia August 10, 1861. Moved to Washington, D.C., August, 1861. At Munson's Hill till September 30. Attached to Baker's Brigade, Stone's (Sedgwick's) Division, Army Potomac, to March, 1862. 2nd Brigade, 2nd Division, 2nd Army Corps, Army Potomac, to June, 1864. 3rd Brigade, 2nd Division, 2nd Army Corps, to August, 1864.
SERVICE.--Moved to Poolesville, Md., September 30, 1861, and duty on the Upper Potomac till February, 1862. At Harper's Ferry till March 24. Moved to the Virginia Peninsula March 24-April 1. Siege of Yorktown April 5-May 4. Moved to West Point May 7. At Tyler's Farm till May 31. Battle
of Fair Oaks (Seven Pines) May 31-June 1. At Fair Oaks till June 28. Near Fair Oaks June 8. Seven Pines June 15. Fair Oaks June 19. Seven days before Richmond June 25-July 1. Battles of Peach Orchard and Savage Station June 29; Charles City Cross Roads and Glendale June 30; Malvern Hill July 1. At Harrison's Landing till August 16. Movement to Newport News, thence to Alexandria August 16-28, and to Centreville and Chantilly August 28-30. Cover Pope's retreat August 31-September 1. Maryland Campaign September 6-24. Battle of Antietam September 16-17. Moved to Harper's Ferry September 22, and duty there till October 30. Reconnoissance to Charlestown October 16-17. Movement to Falmouth, Va., October 30-November 20. Battle of Fredericksburg December 12-15. Burnside's second Campaign, "Mud March," January 20-24, 1863. At Falmouth till April. Hartwood Church February 25. Chancellorsville Campaign April 27-May 6. Banks Ford May 1 and 4. Gettysburg (Pa.) Campaign June 13-July 24. Battle of Gettysburg July 2-4. Pursuit of Lee July 5-24. At Banks Ford and Culpeper till October. Advance from the Rappahannock to the Rapidan September 13-17. Bristoe Campaign October 9-22. Advance to line of the Rappahannock November 7-8. Mine Run Campaign November 26-December 2. Robertson's Tavern or Locust Grove November 27. Duty on the Rapidan till May, 1864. Demonstration on the Rapidan February 6-7. Rapidan Campaign May 4-June 12. Battles of
the Wilderness May 5-7; Laurel Hill May 8; Spottsylvania May 8-12; Po River May 12-21. Assault on the Salient May 12. North Anna River May 23-26. On line of the Pamunkey May 26-28. Totopotomoy May 28-31. Cold Harbor June 1-12. Before Petersburg June 16-18. Siege of Petersburg June 16-August 20. Jerusalem Plank Road June 22-23. Demonstration north of the James at Deep Bottom July 27-29. Deep Bottom July 27-28. Mine Explosion, Petersburg, July 30 (Reserve). Mustered out at Philadelphia August 24, 1864.
Regiment lost during service 11 Officers and 182 Enlisted men killed and mortally wounded and 2 Officers and 69 Enlisted men by disease. Total 264.
----------------------
FOX’S REGIMENTAL LOSSES
Chapter X.—44th New York Infantry--"Ellsworth's Avengers."
Bartlett' Brigade--Griffin's Division--5th Corps.
BATTLES. K. &M.W. BATTLES. K. &M.W.
Yorktown, Va 1 Rappahannock Station, Va 3
Hanover C. H., Va 34 Wilderness, Va 12
Gaines's Mill, Va 17 Spotsylvania, Va 21
Malvern Hill, Va 21 North Anna, Va 1
Manassas, Va 13 Bethesda Church, Va 6
Fredericksburg, Va 7 Petersburg, Va 5
Chancellorsville, Va 1 Poplar Spring Church, Va 2
Middleburg, Va 1 Place unknown. 1
Gettysburg, Pa 36
Present, also, at Seven Days; Antietam; Shepherdstown; Mine Run; Totopotomoy; Weldon Road.
NOTES.--The enlisted men in this regiment were the finest of any in the service. They were recruited from every county in the State, in conformity to requirements calling for unmarried, able-bodied men, not over thirty years of age, not under five feet eight inches in height, and of good moral character. The men were of a high order of intelligence, and when the regiment was organized it was found that the average age was twenty-two, and the average height five feet ten and one-half inches. The men wore a zouave uniform during the first year of their service. At Hanover Court House, its first battle, the Forty-fourth made a gallant fight, losing 27 killed and 59 wounded; at Gaines's Mill--Lieutenant-Colonel Rice commanding --it lost 5 killed, 22 wounded, and 29 missing; and at Malvern Hill, 11 killed, 84 wounded, and 4 missing, out of 225 who were engaged. The regiment was then in Butterfield's Brigade of Morell's (1st) Division. Two new companies (C and E) joined in October, 1862 (one of them composed of students from the State Normal School at Albany), and took the place of two companies which had been consolidated with the others. At Gettysburg,--then in Vincent's Brigade, Barnes's Division, -- the Forty-fourth was one of the first regiments to seize and hold Little Round Top, meeting its greatest loss there; casualties, 20 killed, 82 wounded, and 3 missing; total, 111. At Manassas,-Major Freeman Conner commanding,--the regiment lost 5 killed, 48 wounded, and 18 missing, out of 12 officers and 148 men in action; at the Wilderness, it lost 4 killed and 63 wounded; and at Spotsylvania, 8 killed, 48 wounded, and 9 missing. Mustered out September 24, 1864.
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FOX’S REGIMENTAL LOSSES
Chapter X.—140th New York Infantry.
Weed's Brigade--Ayres's Division--5th Corps.
BATTLES. K. &M.W. BATTLES. K. &M.W.
Chancellorsville, Va 4 Siege of Petersburg, Va 5
Gettysburg, Pa 42 Weldon Railroad, Va 7
Wilderness, Va 55 Poplar Spring Church, Va 1
Spotsylvania, Va 17 Hatcher's Run, Va 5
Bethesda Church, Va 3 White Oak Road, Va 3
Picket Line, Va 2 Five Forks, Va 6
Present, also, at Fredericksburg; Rappahannock Station; Mine Run— North Anna; Totopotomoy; White Oak Swamp (1864); Appomattox.
NOTES.— Organized at Rochester, N.Y., and mustered into service September 13, 1862, leaving the State on September 20. The regiment joined the Army of the Potomac in November, and was assigned to Warren's (3d) Brigade, Sykes's (2d) Division, Fifth Corps. It was present with this command at Fredericksburg, where it was under fire for the first time, a few of the men being wounded there. Colonel O'Rorke was killed at Gettysburg while leading his men into action on Little Round Top, where their prompt action aided largely in seizing that important position, the regiment losing there 26 killed, 89 wounded, and 18 missing; total 133. The One Hundred and Fortieth was then in Ayres's Division— the division of regulars. In 1864 the regulars were brigaded in one command under Ayres, and the One Hundred and Fortieth was placed in the same brigade; the division was commanded by General Charles Griffin. But in June, 1864, the regiment was transferred to the First Brigade of Ayres's (2d) Division. This brigade was commanded in turn by Colonel Gregory, General Joseph Hayes, Colonel Otis, and General Winthrop. The latter officer fell mortally wounded at Five Forks. The regiment was in the hottest of the fighting at the Wilderness, and suffered severely there, losing 23 killed, 118 wounded, and 114 captured or missing; total, 255. Three days later— on May 8th— it was engaged in the first of the series of battles at Spotsylvania, in which action Colonel Ryan and Major Milo L. Starks were killed. At Spotsylvania the casualties in the regiment were 12 killed and 48 wounded; and at the Weldon Railroad, 4 killed, 19 wounded, and 51 captured or missing. The regiment was composed of exceptionally good material; the men were a neat, clean lot, and in their handsome Zouave costume attracted favorable attention wherever they appeared.
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CONTINUED

[M E Wolf]

FOX’S REGIMENTAL LOSSES
Chapter X.—146th New York Infantry.
Ayres's Brigade--Griffin's Division--5th Corps.
Fredericksburg, Va 1 Totopotomoy, Va 1
Chancellorsville, Va 5 Bethesda Church, Va 7
Gettysburg, Pa 7 Petersburg, Va. (assault, 1864) 8
Williamsport, Md 1 Siege of Petersburg, Va 4
Mine Run, Va 1 Weldon Railroad, Va 6
Wilderness, Va 65 White Oak Road, Va 13
Spotsylvania, Va 7 Five Forks, Va 5
North Anna, Va 2
Present, also, at Rappahannock Station; Bristoe Station; White Oak Swamp (1864); Hatcher's Run; Chapel House; Appomattox.
NOTES.— — Recruited in Oneida county, and organized at Rome, N.Y. It was mustered into the service of the United States on October 10, 1862, and proceeded immediately to Washington. In November, 1862, it joined the Army of the Potomac at Snicker's Gap, Va., where it was assigned to Warren's Brigade, Sykes's Division, Fifth Corps, a division composed mostly of regulars. It marched with them to Fredericksburg, where it participated in its first battle. When the Duryée Zouaves were mustered out, in May, 1863, the recruits of that famous regiment were transferred to the One Hundred and Forty-sixth; they numbered 283 men, and were a valuable accession. In 1864, a similar transfer was made from the Forty-fourth New York when this regiment went home. The regiment encountered its severest fighting at the battle of the Wilderness, May 5, 1864, where it suffered a terrible loss, not only in killed and wounded, but in captured men, nearly 200 having been taken prisoners. Colonel Jenkins and Major Henry H. Curran were killed in that bloody encounter, while the total loss of the regiment was 20 killed, 6 7 wounded, and 225 captured or missing. In 1865, the regiment was in Winthrop's (1st) Brigade, Ayres's (2d) Division, and was prominently engaged in that command at the battles of White Oak Road, and Five Forks, General Winthrop being killed in the latter engagement while leading a successful charge of the brigade. The One Hundred and Forty-sixth was well drilled, and at one time wore a conspicuous Zouave uniform. General Joseph Hayes, its last brigade commander, in taking leave of the regiment wrote,— that "associated for a long time with the infantry of the Regular Army, the One Hundred and Forty-sixth yields the palm to none." The war having ended, the regiment was mustered out of service July 16, 1865.
---------------------------
FOX’S REGIMENTAL LOSSES
Chapter X.—72nd Pennsylvania Infantry--" Baxter Zouaves."
Philadelphia Brigade--Gibbon's Division--2nd Corps.
BATTLES. K. &M.W. BATTLES. K. &M.W.
Fair Oaks, Va 3 Mine Run, Va 2
Picket, Va. (June 1862) 6 Wilderness, Va 7
Savage Station, Va 24 Spotsylvania, Va 5
Antietam, Md 58 Totopotomoy, Va 1
Fredericksburg, Va 9 Cold Harbor, Va 6
Gettysburg, Pa 64 Petersburg, Va }
Bristoe Station, Va 1 Jerusalem Road, Va. } 7
Present, also, at Yorktown; Peach Orchard; Glendale; Malvern Hill; Chantilly; Chancellorsville; North Anna.
NOTES.--Recruited in Philadelphia as a "Fire Zouave" regiment. It was organized in August, 1861, with fifteen companies, five of which were disbanded in 1862 and the men distributed to the other ten companies. In the fall of 1861, the regiment was in Stone's Division, which was guarding the Maryland side of the Upper Potomac. In March, 1862, it moved up the Shenandoah Valley in Banks's command, but was transferred soon after to the Peninsular Army. There the Philadelphia Brigade was placed under command of General Wm. W. Burns, and was assigned to Sedgwick's Division. At Savage Station--one of the Seven Days battles--the regiment lost 14 killed and 85 wounded; at Antietam it fought under Sedgwick at the Dunker Church, where it lost 38 killed, 163 wounded, and 36 missing; total, 237. General Alex. S. Webb commanded the brigade at Gettysburg. In that battle the Seventy-second occupied an exposed position during the terrible artillery firing of the third day, and then took a conspicuous part in the repulse of Pickett's Virginians. The monument of the Seventy-second, which stands on that historic spot, states in its inscription, that the regiment had 473 men in line that day and that their loss was 44 killed, 145 wounded, and 2 missing; total, 191. At Mine Run, Lieutenant-Colonel Theodore Hesser was killed on the skirmish line, while in command of the regiment. Its shortened lines were actively engaged in all the battles of the Wilderness campaign, and then, while in the trenches before Petersburg, August, 1864, it received the order for its muster-out.
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(Just a small sample-that the Zouaves weren't just walking guard duty)

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[ole]

I think what Johan was saying that a Zouave regiment didn't necessarily carry a Zouave Rifle-musket. Don't know where the name came from, but if Johann says it wasn't in use, it wasn't.

So it depends on your unit and the regulations of the reenactments in which you participate. If your unit stages a camp-out and some field games, you can get away with what they will allow. If y'all go to someone else's affair, then you have to play by their rules. It's part of involvement.

As Johan has mentioned, there are affordable repops out there. You might consider selling yours to get one of what Johan suggested -- nobody can fault you for carrying one of those. If it wasn't issued, you lifted it on the battlefield.

Ole

[johan_steele]

Sam, there is some argument and even some evidence that the 1863 Zouve Rifle MAY have seen service in the arms of sentries around Washington but the outstanding condition of the existing suggests they probably never left the arsenal.

As to the Zouve... yes plenty saw quite a bit of hard campaigning. I got lazy and used the term "Zouve" to describe the 1863 Remington Rifle, commonly reffered to as the Zouve. Sorry.