World War 1

[5fish]

Originally Posted by Jamieva

I think it's a really hard case to make.

First off, yes the Germans were still in France, but they were definitely moving backwards the last 3 months of the war. The Germans had no hope of stemming that tide at that point.

It's just impossible for the Allied leaders to know that what they did but not invading Germany would have resulted in WW2. I don't think any of the Allied countries had the fight left in them to continue to chew up men left and right to get to Berlin. In the 1917-18 winter, the British had not replenished their losses with new recruits because they were really growing tired of the war and the losses they were taking were not sitting well at home. I don't think Wilson could've made the case to incur those high of losses either.

After 4 years of basically a stalemate, taking the chance that you might be able to get to Berlin was overridden by the sure thing which was just to stop now.

Also, Hitler's entire premise was not based on the fact that the German army was still in France, the major crutch of his rise was the terms of the treaty and how it drove Germany into financial ruin with the reparations that were required.

HI, I moved this sense your post was similar to Bobbie's somewhere else..

I agree the treaty of Versailles was another thing that led to Hitlers rise but my argument is when a nation or rebellion is completely crushed as the Confederacy or the Axis powers of WWII, they are completely humble. The militarism in the society is completely discredited and the population for generations wants to avoid conflict.

If we would have marched to Berlin there would have been on treaty of Versailles only unconditional surrender and the German people would have felt beaten just as the army would have.

The end of militarism in Germany like what happen after WWII in Germany and Japan.


Would had been worth a million American lives??

[OpnDownfall]

Hitler constantly railed against the "November Criminals" who had stabbed the German Army in the back, in 1918.

[Jamieva]

Not what Wilson wanted so it was never going to happen. Remember, it was nearly 2 full years after the sinking of the Lusitania that we finally declared war, and that was only because the Germans were stupid enough to get caught trying to prompt the Mexicans to fight us if we came in.

Wilson ran for re-election in 1916 on a platform of keeping us out of the war.

I also don't totally agree with the premise it would have cost another 1 million lives. When the Germans asked for the Armistice, they were done. They were backpeddling fast, not supplied well, and not getting new recruits. They were ready to break and run en mass.

[5fish]

[quote=Jamieva;82743]

I also don't totally agree with the premise it would have cost another 1 million lives.

I do agree that Wilson had no desire to push and pursue the Germans to Berlin. Wilson lost the war when he allowed the treaty of Versillies to be so infair to Germany. He alloed this because there were people in his staff who were worry more about rising Communism then a just peace..

It was the early fear of Communism that sod the seeds for WWII...



I admit the one million may be to high but I am trying to bring a stark choice to the reader of the post..

[milhistbuff1]

One million deaths was hardly the only option.

Germany was not solely for that war. The allies efforts to absolve themselves of guilt caused that next war via the punitive punishments.

Ole, to answer your earlier question... The only people I know who studied our ACW experience was the Russians. Every other military academy ignored it. Span.Ame. war I cannot speak to. The first Field Marshal Von Moltke said re: the ACW, "One armed mob chasing another, nothing to be learned from this". I refer you to The Iron Cavalry by Ralph Zumbro, a former Paratrooper who served in tanks, during Nam.

[5fish]

[quote=milhistbuff1;82883]One million deaths was hardly the only option.

Germany was not solely for that war. The allies efforts to absolve themselves of guilt caused that next war via the punitive punishments.

If the Allies had pushed the German army into the Baltic sea in 1918 or 1919 then there would have been no future guilt...

Maybe a fair price for one million souls..

[cw1865]

The math of 1 million lives in 1918 to prevent Hitler and the death toll of WWII is compelling.

The terms of Versailles placed restrictions on Germany's ability to project power.

Ostensibly, the Allies got what they wanted, a weak German democracy in the form of the Weimar Republic.

Problem is that the war-weary French were not willing to actually enforce the treaty. But this is telling in more than one respect, ie. the political viability of commanding the mutiny-prone French army and English army (naturally more duty bound) across the Rhine depsite the fact that the Germans are asking for an armistice.

In November 1918, you can't tell the French army that you need ONE MORE YEAR....not going to happen,....

[5fish]

In November 1918, you can't tell the French army that you need ONE MORE YEAR....not going to happen,

So the French were having some issues Like the following casualty rates:

France 73.3%
Russia 76.3%
Germany 65%
Austria 90%
British 35.8%

So if you were in the French Army your chance of Dieing, or being killed, or being wounded, or missing, or captured was only 73.%....

A casualty rate like that might just be a little unmotivating to an army.....

The United States casualty rate was 8% for WWI....We fought for only nine months....

[Jamieva]

And most of the heavy casualties took place in the first 12 months of the war when the armies were still fighting "open" battles before the trench warfare became the way to fight.

They were still trying to fight with Napoleonic tactics in 1914 and some of 1915. Most soldiers didn't even have helmets, they wore hats just like they did in the ACW.

[Blockaderunner]

Remember, when the war started, there were no tanks and even aircraft were not taken seriously as a military weapon. All of the armies in 1914 favoured the use of cavalry, so the similarity to Napoleonic tactics was inevitable. The German thrust into France and Belgium was intended to be a lightning strike, knocking France out of the war. Only after this failed did the war become a stalement of trenches. Only late in the war did the combatants find ways of breaking trenchlines. The British favoured the hurricane bombardment, followed immeadiately by a tank attack. The Germans used stormtroopers to infiltrate an enemy trench, followed by the main body of infantry. Even then, attacks usually bogged down on second or third lines of defence. When American troops began to arrive on the western front, they too had a steep learning curve. The American infantryman wore a 'lemon squeezer' hat, which was quickly traded for the British type 'battle bowler' helmet. American attacks made many of the mistakes of 1916 and were met with heavy casualties.