Abe had a deformed face

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by ole

Sick! Just sick! John, I kinda stuck with you when you were crazy, but I've gotta jump off with the sicko thing. I'll pass.

Ok, ole. Please help me to understand, just exactly what is "the sicko thing"?

You cannot deny that Lincoln had a "special friendship" with Joshua Speed. It is common knowledge that they shared a bed together. They lived together for nearly a decade in their twenties. They maintained a life long relationship.

Lincoln apologists jump to his defense and say "Yeah, but it was strictly platonic and common practice for country lawyers to share accomadations on long trips."

I completely understand that a feller out on the road stayin' at some rundown tavern in Bugtussle, Illinois might have to share accomodatoins with another feller. Especially on Court Day. But that ain't what's goin' on here.

It ain't me bein' a "sicko"!

Maybe you don't like it that I suggested old Abe and his "special friend" might've .... danced through the tulips in the rose garden, but .... Speed did visit Lincoln at the White House. It is common knowledge and fact that he stayed over night on numerous occasions.

It ain't me bein' a "sicko"!

I'm just readin' between the lines. Usin' that grey matter between my ears for more'n a hat rack. Deductive Reasoning.

Mary Todd Lincoln was not happy. He knocked a few kids out of her for sure, but ..... they didn't have what you'd call a happy marriage. Their marriage was full of challenges to say the least. Doesn't that indicate to you a man who wasn't fully invested in the relationship?

Don't get me wrong. I ain't down on Lincoln bein' gay. It ain't a lifestlye I'd choose, but I ain't for persecutin' him for it. I reckon he was born thata way.

What I don't like is the cover up. If it ain't such a big deal, why is it such a big deal? Lincoln had a "special friend". So what?

[J_Man0507]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

You cannot deny that Lincoln had a "special friendship" with Joshua Speed. It is common knowledge that they shared a bed together. They lived together for nearly a decade in their twenties. They maintained a life long relationship.

And? Nobody denies that Lincoln and Speed had a special relationship together. They shared a bed, yes. That does not mean that they shared more than that. That is all that we know they did; they were good friends and shared a bed together.

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

I'm just readin' between the lines. Usin' that grey matter between my ears for more'n a hat rack. Deductive Reasoning.

Read between the lines all that you want, it still needs evidence to prove such an assertion, not deductive reasoning. One can deduce many things, but that does not make them necessarily true. There has been no evidence that Lincoln was, in truth, a closet gay. I read the book that made the assertion, and it was, at best, sketchy.

Why would Mary Todd have married Lincoln? It wasn't because of money. She had many other suitors in her years, including Stephen Douglas, a successful politician. Their marriage was like most marriages, it had its rough points. Things became quite strained when he became president, with so many things requiring his attention. Losing children did not help matters either, and it was after losing Willie that she went kinda crazy. But when Lincoln died, she wept by his bed. Lincoln and Mary Todd seemed to be, though not always happy, in love.

[Ozark Iron John]

I'd just like to hear from some of the gay members of the fourm. Out of the Closet Homosexuals! What do you all think about old honest Abe and his "special friend"? How's it look to you? Why do they deny it? Why do they repress it? Why do they continually try to sweep it under the carpet and shove it back into the closet?

[custersluck13]

To All

To me, this falls into the realm of all the other "conspiracy" theories. I have little trust in the mainstream media, especially when so much of it is left wing agenda driven. I think it is more of attempt to continue destroying everything ever held near and dear to traditional teachings. Maybe Lincoln was gay, we will never know. But until I see proof, Im not going to pin that on the man. Thats a strong accusation, there fore it demands strong proof. It is easy to come up with these theories all day, esp. when it is near impossiable to prove them either way. Another Roswell, Kennedy, or endless 9/11 like theory to me. I just dont think there is any reason to stand solidly behind this one.

[ole]

edited
ole

[J_Man0507]

I rank it up there with Mike Gravell's claim that Spartan's were encouraged to be gay so that they would fight harder for their comrades. It is misguided and inaccurate.

It doesn't matter if they think he was or not. You can think that the moon is truly made out of green cheese, but that doesn't make it so.

[Ozark Iron John]

Ok, let's take a straw poll......

We ain't changed all that much since back then. There's a whole heck of a lot more of US now, but that should only serve to make the representation more democratic.

Who thinks homosexuality didn't exist back in Lincoln's time?

I don't see how you can say it. Homosexulity has existed for ever. We aren't any more or less homosexual now than in Lincoln's day. I'd venture to say the law of averages are the same. Our society is more liberal with regards to that matter, but .... we've got Lincoln to thank for it.

Who thinks it odd that backwoods country lawyers would share accomadations in taverns on Court Day?

I ain't arguing that point at all. It makes perfect sense. They roomed and boarded together so's they could collaborate on their cases and learn from / with each other. It was purely platonic and I don't see nothin' wrong with it. It was their culture at their time and place.

Who thinks it odd that Lincoln and Speed would share the same bedroom, neigh the same bed for an entire decade and NOT have sex together?

Young men, in the prime of life. Night after night after night. If they were not gay, then why the heck didn't Lincoln get his own bed? Speed was a merchant for God's sake. He could've got a deal on a good one. But no, they slept together. Night after night after night. They were "special friends".

Come on you guys! If it walks like a duck ... Quacks like a duck ... and flys south in the winter ...

We can deduce ... They're Gay!

How many of you think it odd that a gay man might marry a woman just to conceal his homosexuality? Especially a politically minded man with high ambitions for public office. Especially a man in the heart land of the United States in a time when chastity and virture were prized commidities.

Of course they had marriages of convienence. They still do.

Why do you continue to deny it?

[larry_cockerham]

Bill Clinton had special friends in the white house. Ain't nobody ever suggested he was light footed.

[matthew mckeon]

I'm charmed by OIJ's violet font he used for this topic.

In "Conduct Unbecoming" Randy Stilts' book about gays in the military, he suggests that Patrick Cleburne was gay.

With that note, I suggest we wrap this up.

[J_Man0507]

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. Think what you want; you have the right to your opinion, even though it is wrong and grounded in a dislike of Lincoln and not in historical fact.

As it has been said, it was common for men to share beds in a time when private quarters were a luxury that most people did not have, unless one was rich and had a good deal of money. As Doris Kearns Goodwin stated in here recent book Team of Rivals:

"It was common practice (sharing a bed) in an era when private quarters were a rare luxury, when males regularly slept in the same bed as children and continued to do so in acadamies, boardinghouses, and overcrowded hotels. The room above Speed's store functioned as a sort of dormitory, with two other young men living there part of the time as well as Lincoln and Speed."

Lincoln and Speed participated in the common pasttime of many men of all time, girl-chasing. They went out and chased women together!! William Herndon, who was Lincoln's law partner, said of Lincoln and Speed that they "were quite familiar, to go no further, with the women. I cannot tell you what I know, especially in ink. Speed was a lady's man in a good and true sense. Lincoln only went to see a few women of the first class, women of sense." One story, told by Herndon, tells of Lincoln bumbling around with a prostitute!!

Lincoln lived in an age where male friendships were much closer than they are today. The kind of relationship that he and Speed was one in which they could confide in one another and they were very close. I can hazard a guess that most men nowadays don't have a friendship with one of their guy friends which is anywhere close to Lincoln's and Speed's, Salmon Chases and Edwin Stanton's, or any numerous other male relationships in the nineteenth century. Were all of these men closet gays? Highly unlikely. As I stated earlier, there is no definitive evidence that Lincoln was gay. None. It is all speculation and it has risen to try and prove to those that are against homosexuality that if such famous people as Lincoln were gay, it must be okay. It is not grounded in fact, but in a want to justify something. Now, those who don't like Lincoln have picked up the flag and are waving it like idiots. Let them make fools of themselves I say. They have no proof.