Eric, thanks for your reply, and additional info. You're obviously a scholar on the battle.
I don't think I made myself clear on one thing. I know Hood did not direct Cleburne to attack south, and Cheatham to attack north. I believe he wanted both to line up so that they both could attack south if necessary. But I think Cheatham somehow did not get the instructions that were supposed to be passed along by Bate(?)I'm not sure about that, to form up to attack south, due to a foul-up in communications. I do believe Hood wanted both generals to line up so that they could manuever towards Columbia if necessary.
As far as Cheathams failure to attack, after drawing almost every man available from different locations around Spring Hill, I think the fault there lies with John C. Brown did it not? Would you agree? Brown kept telling everyone who asked about the delay that he "had no orders" to attack. Even when Chalmers from Forrests command rode up and inquired as to what the hell was the hold up, Brown told him the same thing, whereupon Chalmers said, and I'm paraphrasing, "General when I was in the same situation at Shiloh, I attacked without orders!" He was very agitated. But Brown still would not attack.
I did not know that Cheatham later claims to have told Brown to attack. Brown's always said he had no orders. Thanks again for helping to clear this up.This Spring Hill affair is undoubtedly the most confusing battle I've read about yet, and I'm just now getting to Franklin. As I mentioned before I had to read the Spring Hill chapters twice so far, and may have to do it once more. But I'm determined to finish the entire book first...I hope. At least I'll have some good background by the time I read your book.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
Terry, I sure don't want to give too much away before you read my book. However, I think it is entirely possible Brown did not receive any further orders after stopping as he stated. Even Cheatham said that he understood Brown's decision to halt his advance. The catch is that Cheatham said he told Brown to push forward regardless whereas Brown said that never happened. Meanwhile Cheatham said he would go and confer with Hood. The real rub is what happened when Cheatham and Hood spoke. As for that, I'll have to tell you to read my book.
The real rub is what happened when Cheatham and Hood spoke. As for that, I'll have to tell you to read my book.
Eric, after reading about the Spring Hill episode I would dearly love to find out what was said in that conversation. It seems that if just some of the things that went wrong for the Confederates there had gone right, they may have been able to pull it off. It's astounding how many things did go wrong for them, starting with the map, which I think Hood probably could have corrected had he met with some of the locals before marching his army north, rather than finding out right there in the middle of the road that his map was incorrect. And I understand that map was a copy of a Federal map that had been seized somewhere. Man, what a mess.
I'm hoping my wife will give me my birthday present now, rather than in September, so I can get your book! That is if I ever finish this one. Thanks for your reply Eric. Take care.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
"They were all that the Confederacy could muster, what was left of the heart and spirit of the middle South. Yet their ragged appearance belied their ultimate worth. They were the essence of indomitable courage, the best of their generation. A fierce and reckless spirit shone forth, one that seemed to say they could not be overcome, no matter what their fate. Perhaps it was their pride that was most evident. Here were the men who had suffered all, and were about to suffer even more. Their legacy was assured; it could be only that of everlasting glory."
"Confederacys Last Hurrah", Wiley Sword, p. 184
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
"They were all that the Confederacy could muster, what was left of the heart and spirit of the middle South. Yet their ragged appearance belied their ultimate worth. They were the essence of indomitable courage, the best of their generation. A fierce and reckless spirit shone forth, one that seemed to say they could not be overcome, no matter what their fate. Perhaps it was their pride that was most evident. Here were the men who had suffered all, and were about to suffer even more. Their legacy was assured; it could be only that of everlasting glory."
"Confederacys Last Hurrah", Wiley Sword, p. 184
THAT'S why the Sons of Confederate Veterans exists, nothing more or less.
I hate to ask, but are you absolutely sure of that?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Every bit of the information available regarding the Battle of Spring Hill must be taken with a grain of salt.
The fellow that is cited as having witnessed the "bad map" incident also said that Granbury was sitting with Hood while his brigade was assaulting the 26th Ohio. He is also the guy that says Cleburne and Walthall were "drinking freely" later that evening at Hood's H.Q.. He is also the guy that says there was a party at the H. Q. that night.
The fact is - is that John Solomon Gregory (Uncle Sol) serving with Co. G, 9th Tennessee cavalry and related his accounts of the evening at age 76 to a gentleman who was compilinig a history of Maury County, TN.
The most disappointing thing about may interpretations of events is the use of Gregory's accounts and to discredit other accounts written by the participants themselves instead of a regurgitation of it through someone else's words nearly 50 years after the event.
It can't even be proven that Gregory was one of Hood's Scouts! It was certainly a claim made by Uncle Sol though. How great would it be to be able to tell the grandkids a story like that?
He is about as credible as James Remington - the union spy who really did cause the COnfederates to fail at Spring Hill.
And if you believe that, you'll certainly believe that John C. Brown was a coward and Cheatham was "full blown drunk".
Historians dating back to J. P. Young, the first authority on the battle, believed what they wanted to believe. If you have something against Hood - nothing will convince you - no matter what the evidence - that he was not to blame. The same can be said with Brown, Cheatham, Strahl, Stewart, Johnson, Forrest and yes - even the lamented Cleburne.
The Army died at Franklin but only due to the failures at Spring Hill. The command of the Army of Tennessee had let down the men in the ranks - and they would pay for it the next day.
Nothing can be as dramatic as the assault and bloody fields described at Franklin - but there is no question - at least in my mind - the FATE of the Army of Tennessee was decided at Spring Hill.
Gunny, 'preciate your input on that. I'm still relatively a novice when it comes to the battles at Spring Hill, Franklin etc, and am always looking for new perspectives and insights on those engagements. Thanks.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
Yes, folks, that's Eric, our writer of the best docuemented version of this story to date. Many of us believe Sword was a bit biased towards Hood. John Bell is not exactly a local hero, to say the least, but Eric treats him with fact and logic, something that might be lacking with the others. Sword tells a very readible good story, but the details are few and far between. I doubt there is a man or woman alive who has the whole story corralled. That's what makes this hobby both fun and challenging. It's like paintball. Just when you think you understand an event, here comes a bomshell of information over your left shoulder. Writers like Eric are a great help. One thing that Southerners tend to forget is that there were two armies in this war. Federal units offered much detail on the battles of Spring Hill, Franklin and Nashville that are very valuable in comparison. Gunny, who writes a bit himself, has spent years walking the fields at Franklin and is an authority with few peers.
Last edited by larry_cockerham; 08-29-2006 at 10:13 AM.
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However, I think it is entirely possible Brown did not receive any further orders after stopping as he stated. Even Cheatham said that he understood Brown's decision to halt his advance. The catch is that Cheatham said he told Brown to push forward regardless whereas Brown said that never happened. Meanwhile Cheatham said he would go and confer with Hood. The real rub is what happened when Cheatham and Hood spoke. As for that, I'll have to tell you to read my book.
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