Is true, I suppose, that Pope was better than running a force in Minnesota. He might have some good things to go for him had he been placed under Grant or Sherman. But this is the way it works and worked. No particular rhyme or reason. Nobody asked to have him back. His 15 minutes of fame lasted little more than the figurative 15 minutes.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
To all the posters who wrote down McClellan, I fully concur, Pope's and McClellan's activities should be coordinated to effect one purpose: destroying Lee. To that end McClellan should be going to Pope or at least applying pressure by going for Richmond or at least attempting to get behind Lee. If Patton were McClellan, we can only imagine what could've been accomplished.
As for the Northern Virginia campaign, I tend to give credit where credit is due, for me, this campaign is Lee's finest. I actually get bewildered reading it! Pope was too!
Figured this would be a good poll to spark some conversation about the 2nd Battle of Bull Run (Manassas). The query is: Which Union general do you think is most responsible for the debacle? Pope, McDowell or Porter?
I'm going to give credit to Gen. Pope. He was a dang fool. Over his head. Indecisive and unable to committ resouces in a timely manner. Consequently, he was overrun by Lee's finest.
My problem with Gen. Pope isn't that he was out generaled. My problem with him is that he blamed a subordinate for the debacle and ruined a good man's career to further his own. After he put an end to Gen. Porter, he moved on to command the frontier with his "in your face / kill them and all and let God sort them out" mentality against the "savages".
Let us understand each other. I have come to you from the West, where we have always seen the backs of our enemies; from an army whose business it has been to seek the adversary and to beat him when he was found; whose policy has been attack and not defense. In but one instance has the enemy been able to place our Western armies in defensive attitude. I presume that I have been called here to pursue the same system and to lead you against the enemy. It is my purpose to do so, and that speedily. I am sure you long for an opportunity to win the distinction you are capable of achieving. That opportunity I shall endeavor to give you. Meantime I desire you to dismiss from your minds certain phrases, which I am sorry to find so much in vogue amongst you. I hear constantly of "taking strong positions and holding them," of "lines of retreat," and of "bases of supplies." Let us discard such ideas. The strongest position a soldier should desire to occupy is one from which he can most easily advance against the enemy. Let us study the probable lines of retreat of our opponents, and leave our own to take care of themselves. Let us look before us, and not behind. Success and glory are in the advance, disaster and shame lurk in the rear. Let us act on this understanding, and it is safe to predict that your banners shall be inscribed with many a glorious deed and that your names will be dear to your countrymen forever
Well. He had the right idea. Those were Grant's sentiments as well, but Grant wasn't dumb enough to get up on the podium and say it out loud.
It is a puzzlement for me when pondering where Pope's proper place ought to have been (had he not been cut off at the knees so early in the war). If he hadn't been busted to command in Minnesota and had been instead been put under Grant out west. I figure he might have had a better name than he has.
The moments to shine are fleeting.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Indecisiveness was really Not the major problem with Pope.
With subordinates like, Banks, McDowall Heintzleman, Porter etc., it is doubtful that even a Lee would have been able to commit resources in a timely manner AND of course receiving timely or effective assistance from McClellan, would be problematic, At Best (as Pope suspected)
IMO, Pope had a potentially winning position at the table, but he had to play with some mighty bad cards in his hand.
Vindication of Fitz-John Porter.—General Grant's magnanimity was never more touchingly illustrated than in his efforts to secure justice for GEN. FITZ-JOHN PORTER. The story of his actions in this matter is most fittingly told in his own language. On Dec. 22, 1881, he addressed the following appeal in behalf of General Porter to the President :
Well. Yes. Porter got the mooky end of the stick. But that sort of thing happened and still happens. If you are out there, cutting your way through the ordinary types, there will be those who whack at your edge. A rather silly set of events, but it happens.
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I think this was a character flaw with Gen. Pope ole. He developed a reputation for blaming his subordinates after 2nd Bull Run.
During the Sioux Uprising of 1862 Gen. Pope sent Col. Henry H. Sibley and several Regiments against Little Crow at Wood Lake, Minnesota. US forces engaged the hostiles and fought a brief battle that ended with a fierce bayonette charge against the enemy and stunning victory. They captured approximately 300 warriors. Half of which were "mixed-bloods" and one third of which were whites, mostly women and children. In December, Gen Pope convicted the prisoners of murder and rape and sentenced to death. Some tof the rials lasted less than 5 minutes, and the proceedings neither were explained to the defendants, nor were they represented in court. On December 26, 1862, he executed 38 prisoners by hanging, in what remains the largest mass execution in US government history. Sibley gets credit for the autrocity, but our good General was right there with him, pushing him on.
In the summer of 1864, Black Kettle, a chief of a group of around 800 mostly Southern Cheyennes, reported to Fort Lyon in an effort to declare peace. After having done so, he and his band camped out at nearby Sand Creek. The Dog Soldiers, who had been responsible for much of the conflict with whites, were not part of this encampment. Assured by the U.S. Government's promises of peace, Black Kettle sent most of his warriors to hunt, leaving only around 60 men in the village, most of them too old or too young to participate. Black Kettle flew an American flag over his lodge, since previously he had been assured that this practice would keep him and his people safe from US aggression. On the morning of November 29, 1864 Gen. Pope ordered Col. John M. Chivington and his troops to attack the village, disregarding the American flag, and a white flag that was run up shortly after the soldiers commenced firing. Chivington gets credit for massacring the mostly unarmed inhabitants in what has come to be known as the Sand Creek Massacre, but Gen. Pope gets off unscathed.
Don't get me started on Gen. Pope.
But it was more than that. It was systematic of the Lincoln administration in general. Lincoln and Stanton routinely promoted general officers who were just a little too zealous, if you ask me.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
