"Yes, even them. They served their country and if they did so honorably then why should they be denied that honor, just because I don't happen to agree with the politics of their country in that era."
Sorry. The words "if" and "politics" can be used to cover a multitude of evil.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Sorry. The words "if" and "politics" can be used to cover a multitude of evil.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
Well you then seem to be falling into the great american game of "blame the grunt". When in fact generally the mud slogging gravel crunching private solider. Although serving a gubmint you may find offensive has the least responsibilty for their leaders actions.
I fail to see how service to someones country makes them evil regardless of their countries politics.Patriotism is allowed for all manner of goverments not just the ones I agree with.
Course I don't have the benefit of an ivory tower. I myself reside in a glass house.
"Well you seem to be falling into the great american game of "blame the grunt". When in fact generally the mud slogging gravel crunching private soldier. Although serving a gubmint you may find offensive has the least responsibility for their leaders actions."
Borderruffian, I was one of those grunts during the Vietnam War and had ocassion to be given a Hitler salute and be spit upon while wearing the uniform of my country. I voluntarily enlisted because I felt I owed my country a return of the favors she had bestowed upon me. Peace, freedom, and the right to live without fear.
I was 18 years old when I held up my right hand and swore to defend the Constitution of the United States and then follow the lawful and legal orders of the officers appointed over me.
Quote:
"I fail to see how service to someones country makes them evil regardless of their countries politics. Patriotism is allowed for all manner of governments not just the ones I agree with."
Patriotism is fine and good and I have my full quota of it. But blind patriotism can cause the greatest evil by supporting an evil cause and wrapping it in the cloak of such blind patriotism. Soliders are not brutes, not machines, and should in no way be programable to the point they forget their oath to the Constitution, the law, and fail to notice between right and wrong, good and evil. No branch of our society, to include the men in our armed forces, should somehow get a free pass on morality because they 'are serving their country.' No man has his mind totally stripped of the concepts of what is right and what is wrong. Soldiers most of all simply cannot follow orders without question all in the name of patriotism. When that day arrives, those soldiers will truly become automations, without conscience, without souls.
No matter what the orders, no matter how desperate the cause, no soldier is stripped of his ideals of what is right and what is wrong. Even in the most desperate of circumstances, those ideals cannot be stripped away in the name of bloody patriotism.
Quote:
"Course I don't have the benefit of an ivory tower. I myself reside in a glass house."
Twenty years with the US Army gives me a certain outlook on the very question that has come up here on this board more than once. I frankly cannot ever remember being billeted in an ivory tower, as I was an enlisted man during my time in. I also don't remember any glass houses, but I do recall the walls of a pup tent now and again.
The point I was trying to make, Borderruffian, there's no scraping off your conscience when you serve what you know to be an evil cause. A soldier still can THINK and know if what he is doing is right or wrong.
I have no problem with the idea that Southern soldiers were serving in what they thought was a just and honorable cause. Just as I have no problem with the idea the Northern soldiers thought they were serving a just and honorable cause. It is just that history has acknowledged that the Southern soldiers were fighting for the wrong one.
While they fought for this wrong cause, it does not in any way detract from their bravery or courage and does not take away from their many acts of compassion on the battlefield. They should be honored for those acts alone and remembered for them.
But the cause they fought for should not be swept away in our rush to honor them, or we won't learn anything and we will pass along an unfocused lesson of history.
This being said, I strongly believe that soldiers can be patriotic, brave, strong and completely wrong in the cause they serve and commit horrendous acts of evil in the process of that service. Soldiers should hold onto their sense of honor above all else, because the profession truly is a noble and worthy one. I would not sacrifice that honor with blind, unthinking patriotism.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
You have your opinion, I have mine. History will inform us eventually who is the more correct on the matter.
I'm willing to wait.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Neil, Battalion and I will keep pecking away until your blue eyes have a hint of gray.....
You wrote:
"I have no problem with the idea that Southern soldiers were serving in what they thought was a just and honorable cause. Just as I have no problem with the idea the Northern soldiers thought they were serving a just and honorable cause. It is just that history has acknowledged that the Southern soldiers were fighting for the wrong one.
While they fought for this wrong cause, it does not in any way detract from their bravery or courage and does not take away from their many acts of compassion on the battlefield. They should be honored for those acts alone and remembered for them.
But the cause they fought for should not be swept away in our rush to honor them, or we won't learn anything and we will pass along an unfocused lesson of history."
In my still humble opinion, Southern soldiers fought for many right causes, as we have discussed many times before. Yes, for the lebenty seventh time, the overlying relationship of the results of southern efforts with respect to the notion that slavery was part of the war effort can not be denied, nor will I attempt to do so. The CAUSE was not so simple and I submit was by no means totally focused on slavery as you continue to champion as a conclusion of your many years of study in this regard. At least from the perspective of the Confederate soldier, slavery was not the central theme causing him to risk life, limbs and the family farm. Politicians and you northern folks seem to enjoy arguing otherwise. Us Cornfeds still don't completely agree.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
Last edited by larry_cockerham; 12-20-2007 at 12:40 AM.
You state that you think Confederate soldiers fought for many right causes.
Whatever cause they fought for, whatever cause they thought right, they ended up fighting for slavery.
In my opinion.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
You state that you think Confederate soldiers fought for many right causes.
Whatever cause they fought for, whatever cause they thought right, they ended up fighting for slavery.
In my opinion.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
...and the North fought for and upheld slavery wherever it legally existed within the United States-
all of Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, Maryland, and Tennessee and parts of Louisiana and Virginia. Maintaining seven Slave States and 800,000 slaves.
What did that English guy say about the EP?-
"Slavery is wrong...but only if you are disloyal to the United States"
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
All I know is that a result of the Civil War, slavery was abolished by the 13th amendment to the Constitution and is no longer a curse upon this nation.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Battalion, there is no doubt that at the end of the War w/ a victorious US slavery was dead. If the CS had won slavery would have remained, w/in their borders least ways. I know it is a horrible thought to you but slavery in the US was abolished by the US & good ridance.
One less stain upon the honor & integrity of the US.
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
