Like it or not..... the CBF is part of this nation's history. The nation's tenacity if I can call it, that is found in many letters and diaries of southern soldiers who fought under the St. Andrew's Cross can be documented throughout this country's archives. It is that same tenacity that can be found throughout today's military from all 50 states. It shows what the people of these United States of America (both North and South) can accomplish. I have no ill feelings toward those that fought under the CBF...... however I despise those that abuse the CBF in post 1865 .That irks me.
I seldom chime in on CBF discussion but I read alot of thought prevoking comments so.....
Since it was a battle flag would the average CSA citizen, not in the army,
would have been anymore choked up about it than Joe Blow from PA, would have been enamoured by an Ohio state flag? How "national" an ensign was it? more so than the actual confederate national flag?
It certainly is distinctive in its appearance which would explain its effectiveness as a battlefield ensign (which afterall was why it was designed, to be distinctive on a battlefield)
As a symbol, it has been commandeered, used by many groups whose activities are not always approved by society. I would venture to say that for many many people, their thoughts and opinions of the symbol has been forever and irrevocably tainted by its postwar use, add to the rampant modern PC'ness and the reaction to that PC'ness and I think it becomes quite a morass...great for keeping a discussion going but ultimately I see no resolution to its controversial nature.
I would venture to say, given the state of some folks education out there in the general population, that alot of folks don't even connect it to the ACW anymore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad2duhbone53
Like it or not..... the CBF is part of this nation's history. The nation's tenacity if I can call it, that is found in many letters and diaries of southern soldiers who fought under the St. Andrew's Cross can be documented throughout this country's archives. It is that same tenacity that can be found throughout today's military from all 50 states. It shows what the people of these United States of America (both North and South) can accomplish. I have no ill feelings toward those that fought under the CBF...... however I despise those that abuse the CBF in post 1865 .That irks me.
__________________
Joe Korber
Company H, 119th NY Historical Society
Willis Company
119th NY Field Music
Jkorker, that's precisely why 30,000 SCV members are working on educating folks alive today about the role of the Confederate battle flag in the war and it's origins plus the attachments of the descendants of those who used it as a rallying point in their efforts in the war. As you know, there is still much to overcome. National flags (3) versus actual battle flags (regimental) is another topic that few understand.
Mr Scots - It is my opinion that you are hung up in semantics (or are possibly attempting to hang up the discussion in the semantics) for it appears fairly obvious from your posts that you understand that there are many potential (different?) demographics that can fall within the general description of "Southern" or "Southerners" just as there would be within any/every other similar, general descriptor.
You agree with me that the term "Southerner" does not, today, very well describe any united or ideological group -- particularly in regards to the CBF. Is it, then, unnecessary semantics to better categorize celebrants of the CBF beyond the admittedly insufficient or even inaccurate title "Southerners"?
One cannot say that "Southerners" feel a certain way about the flag, since we can all agree that not all people in the southern states fall into that category.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeith21
I've been taught, used, shared and enjoyed "Southern" for well over 50 years now and there, up to this point, has been little confusion generated from doing so. Therefore, I think I'll just stick with it.
The reason there has been "little confusion" is likely because many people share assumptions with you of what the South is. Breaking down these assumptions, or at least identifying them, is an important step in historical or logical accuracy.
The problem here is not a matter of semantics, but of accuracy. Further, it does touch the line of arrogance -- for it classifies "Southerners" as only those people who share certain ideological views. As I asked before, where do people from the South but who do not celebrate the CBF as you fit in? Are they Southerners? You seem to agree they are. If so, then you must agree that the use of the general term "Southeners" is inaccurate, for it admittedly excludes a large number of southern people.
Overall, people have a natural habit of grouping, stereotyping, or lumping others (and themselves) into categories. This is not always a negative habit. But, it has been used many times with negative consequences. People who use simplistic groupings to describe specific traits or issues not conducive to the whole generally demonstrate a level of ignorance or carelessness.
The question boils down to: do all "Southerners" feel the same way about the flag? If not, then the use of the term "Southerners" without further qualification or description is inaccurate and careless.
You agree with me that the term "Southerner" does not, today, very well describe any united or ideological group -- particularly in regards to the CBF.
No... I have quite plainly stated, several times, that I am quite comfortable with the usage of the term and feel it to be adequate and properly descriptive of the general concept... even if in some circumstances, 5 more seconds of conversation may be required to clarify any further distinctions that may be desired or required. I have also allowed that if others wish to use it for the same or different purposes as it suits their purpose(s), then I have no problem with them doing so... but I do not own the term nor regulate the use of the term... and have only expressed my opinion as requested. I have also tried to encourage you to do what you feel to be proper to further deliniate the term if and as you feel it would best serve your own purposes, for it is not me experiencing the problem... and that I see no potential problem needing a solution... and that I do not wish to spend time solving a problem that requires no solution.
Is it, then, unnecessary semantics to better categorize celebrants of the CBF beyond the admittedly insufficient or even inaccurate title "Southerners"?
Well... what further can I say?
One cannot say that "Southerners" feel a certain way about the flag, since we can all agree that not all people in the southern states fall into that category.
I'll leave you to pick that nit.
The reason there has been "little confusion" is likely because many people share assumptions with you of what the South is. Breaking down these assumptions, or at least identifying them, is an important step in historical or logical accuracy.
I'll agree if you discard the word "important" yet do not lightly disregard the the fact that it may be important to you.
The problem here is not a matter of semantics, but of accuracy.
...or of accurate semantics?
Further, it does touch the line of arrogance --
... you're trying to hurt my feelings, aren't you?
for it classifies "Southerners" as only those people who share certain ideological views. As I asked before, where do people from the South but who do not celebrate the CBF as you fit in? Are they Southerners? You seem to agree they are. If so, then you must agree that the use of the general term "Southeners" is inaccurate, for it admittedly excludes a large number of southern people.
Overall, people have a natural habit of grouping, stereotyping, or lumping others (and themselves) into categories. This is not always a negative habit. But, it has been used many times with negative consequences. People who use simplistic groupings to describe specific traits or issues not conducive to the whole generally demonstrate a level of ignorance or carelessness.
The question boils down to: do all "Southerners" feel the same way about the flag? If not, then the use of the term "Southerners" without further qualification or description is inaccurate and careless.
For one, I see the accurate use of descriptive terms as very important. And it perplexes me that one would admit that the definition they use does not accurately explain what they mean, but that they don't care to be more specific.
What if someone were to say that all Southerners were ignorant and racist? Would that be an accurate statement? Certainly there are some people in the South that fit under that description. Could that person simply play off the characterization of "Southerners" by saying that they had used the term for 50 years and everybody seemed to understand which people in the South it refers to?
If you questioned the person's use of the term "Southerners" by pointing out the very real fact that a large proportion of people in the South--probably even a majority--were not ignorant or racist, would you be nit-picking or making a mountain out of a molehill?
What would you say to someone who made characterizations of blacks, Asians, or some other group that may describe specific traits of particular people, but did not accurately reflect the group as a whole?
Now, you may not see the connection, or believe that the context is completely different. For one, the grouping you are practicing is not intended to denote any negative or condescending message. So, no harm no foul...right?
The problem is that the stereotyping is still incorrect. And, it does carry a negative connotation. The stereotyping in this instance has a reverse effect than the analogy I gave above. Rather than the comment being inclusive ("all Southerners are racist"="if you are Southern, you are racist") it is exclusive ("Southerners see the CBF as X"="if you do not see the flag as X you are not Southern").
You have stated that this attention to detail is relatively unimportant to you...that your use of the term serves your own purpose as well as that of many others. So, what is the big deal? No one is really hurt. But it comes back to accuracy. This discussion, this website, really does not mean much in the larger scheme of things. In fact, most historical discussions can be (and are) played off by a large percentage of the population as pointless pondering over long-settled disputes, or tired old arguments. But those of us who do choose to discuss history or share ideas generally appreciate accuracy and attention to detail.
Finally, what I am talking about here is a simple matter. It is not rocket science. It is about someone taking an extra few words or couple of seconds to more fully explain something. (This is also something that professional writers and historians are expected to do, for if they make careless stereotypes or assumptions, their work will be picked apart. A simple assumption can undermine a whole argument.) Instead of stereotyping all "Southerners" into a group that is demonstrably more diverse than the usage may entail, one can easily say "defenders of the flag" or some other descriptive term.
So, you may ask why am I laboring the point. I turn to ask, why question the point? The matter could have been solved a few posts ago.
Joe, those are great. My favorite is the redneck "hearing protection", and the "limo 3". The "margarita maker" guy put some thought into that..he might even be able to get a patent for it.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
All of this over a flag that was not the official flag of the CSA. It was only a marker used to help keep alignment in a formation.
The flag that is flown around today more resembles the Naval Jack.
The actual CBF was a perfect square.
__________________ F. S. Powers
Union Ancersor: Pvt Arnuah Norton, 60th Ohio. (G-G-G Grandfather) Died at Salisbury NC, November 3, 1864
Confederate Ancestors: Captain Thomas A. Morrow, 29th Texas Cavalry (G-G-G- Uncle) and 2LT George W. Morrow, 31st Texas Cavalry (G-G-G Grandfather). Both survived the war
The ANV carried flags that for the most part were square, however the AoT carried the Polk's Corps, Hardee's Corps and other home made flags that were all wrectangular in shape until the mass issue of the Dalton issue flags which were still wrectangular in shape.
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