Who, specifically, are you including in your reference to the "Southern soul" and "we...as a people"? Not every person born and raised in the southern states feels the same about the flag.
Nor about grits either, probably. But I'd recommend that if you had an contrary opinion, add it rather than take silent non-specific offense to being bundled into a group you don't feel yourself to be a part of. I think we'd all acknowledge that there are exceptions to every rule.
Grits! Blechhhh! Guess you hadda been there! Fed some of my family sausage gravey though. This far north that don't happen often.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Nor about grits either, probably. But I'd recommend that if you had an contrary opinion, add it rather than take silent non-specific offense to being bundled into a group you don't feel yourself to be a part of. I think we'd all acknowledge that there are exceptions to every rule.
You didn't answer my question.
By your comment "exceptions to every rule," are we to assume you mean that those who do not see the flag as you do are somehow different or outsiders to mainline Southerners?
By your comment "exceptions to every rule," are we to assume you mean that those who do not see the flag as you do are somehow different or outsiders to mainline Southerners?
You didn't ask me a question... you asked Larry a question.
But in answer to this one, Scots... yes. I think most folks who were raised in the South... who's families were raised in the South and who's ancestors fought for the South or were around during that late unplesantness do feel this way and those who haven't been beaten down by much of this political correctness crapola would be most proud to say so. I would be surprised... no... floored if it were otherwise.
You didn't ask me a question... you asked Larry a question.
You are right. Perhaps Larry will better explain his position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeith21
But in answer to this one, Scots... yes. I think most folks who were raised in the South... who's families were raised in the South and who's ancestors fought for the South or were around during that late unplesantness do feel this way and those who haven't been beaten down by much of this political correctness crapola would be most proud to say so. I would be surprised... no... floored if it were otherwise.
How many people does this include? And how are we to label these people?
For instance, what about people raised in the South, but whose family moved there some time after the Civil War? What about those whose family were Unionists? And what about black Southerners who were raised in the South and whose families were there the entire time? Many people from these groups do not see the CBF in the same light. They are Southerners, are they not?
Further, there are some who were not born in the South, but who celebrate it due to their family history or for some other interest. They are not Southerners.
Overall, it would not be fair or accurate to say that "Southerners" see the CBF in a certain way. What we are talking about here is not a sectional identity, but an ideological or psychological identity. So, what would be a more accurate way to describe or group the people who celebrate the flag?
You are right. Perhaps Larry will better explain his position.
How many people does this include? And how are we to label these people?
For instance, what about people raised in the South, but whose family moved there some time after the Civil War? What about those whose family were Unionists? And what about black Southerners who were raised in the South and whose families were there the entire time? Many people from these groups do not see the CBF in the same light. They are Southerners, are they not?
Further, there are some who were not born in the South, but who celebrate it due to their family history or for some other interest. They are not Southerners.
Overall, it would not be fair or accurate to say that "Southerners" see the CBF in a certain way. What we are talking about here is not a sectional identity, but an ideological or psychological identity. So, what would be a more accurate way to describe or group the people who celebrate the flag?
Mr. Scots - You ask some pretty emcompassing questions but at the same time seem to be splitting some fairly fine hairs.
So allow me to back track a bit and restate my position... that I/we feel a certain "indefinable" way about the CBF and further and strongly opined that most of the "...folks who were raised in the South... who's families were raised in the South and who's ancestors fought for the South or were around during that late unplesantness..." also share those feelings. That's a fairly well-defined group, except now looking at your questions I probably could have been a bit more specific with "...ancestors...around during that late unplesantness...".
You offer a number of questions and hypotheticals that could all be exceptions to my claim, yet I might claim they fall outside of my defined group but neither tack really accomplishes anything.
Yes, you are correct that there are idealogical Southerners and there are geographical Southerners. Some could be members of both groups although that would not be required. Either may rightfully and proudly (if they wish) call themselves Southerners, and not to the exclusion of the other group using the same term. (Unless you want to take this hyphenation crapola to new heights of ridiculousness and then we could be Geo-Southerners, or Ideo-Southerners or even Geo-Ideo-Southerners. Would that suit your purposes better?)
If you want to be called a Southerner but don't have the same warm fuzzies I do about the flag... Heck, that's no problem... for me, anyway.
If I knew what the real issue was you are trying to address here I could possibly reply a bit more directly. If I haven't properly addressed your question(s), give me some more help and I'll try again. Thanks - Joe
Actually, I am not basing my posts or questions upon my own personal situation (although I do share some of the elements of being "Southern" you mention). In short, it is not my intention to simply carve a place out for myself.
I am looking at the issue as a whole. And I am responding to assumptions many people have about being "Southern" and about the CBF.
When I hear people say that "Southerners" see the flag a certain way, I immediately wonder how one can put all people from the southern states into a single ideological group -- especially when there are many in the South who do not view the flag in the same light. What is this grouping based upon? Is it based upon the belief that only true Southerners celebrate the CBF? This might mean that the term "Southerners" refers to people who do not simply live in the southern states, but who adhere to a certain ideology. Or, is it due to the common habit of people working within the realm of preconceived notions -- that the "South" or "Southerners" is made up of certain people (Confederate descendants, etc.). But, like this thread asks, how do black Southerners feel about it? Too many times I have seen the term "South" inferring only the white South.
I think there needs to be a better definition of just who or what celebrates the CBF. It is not limited to, nor includes all, people in the South. It does not include all people with Confederate ancestery. It really is only a group defined by a common belief or set of ideas.
What is a better description of this group of people?
Actually, I am not basing my posts or questions upon my own personal situation (although I do share some of the elements of being "Southern" you mention). In short, it is not my intention to simply carve a place out for myself.
I am looking at the issue as a whole. And I am responding to assumptions many people have about being "Southern" and about the CBF.
When I hear people say that "Southerners" see the flag a certain way, I immediately wonder how one can put all people from the southern states into a single ideological group -- especially when there are many in the South who do not view the flag in the same light. What is this grouping based upon? Is it based upon the belief that only true Southerners celebrate the CBF? This might mean that the term "Southerners" refers to people who do not simply live in the southern states, but who adhere to a certain ideology. Or, is it due to the common habit of people working within the realm of preconceived notions -- that the "South" or "Southerners" is made up of certain people (Confederate descendants, etc.). But, like this thread asks, how do black Southerners feel about it? Too many times I have seen the term "South" inferring only the white South.
I think there needs to be a better definition of just who or what celebrates the CBF. It is not limited to, nor includes all, people in the South. It does not include all people with Confederate ancestery. It really is only a group defined by a common belief or set of ideas.
What is a better description of this group of people?
Mr Scots - It is my opinion that you are hung up in semantics (or are possibly attempting to hang up the discussion in the semantics) for it appears fairly obvious from your posts that you understand that there are many potential (different?) demographics that can fall within the general description of "Southern" or "Southerners" just as there would be within any/every other similar, general descriptor.
If, for whatever reason, you feel there needs to be a better, more thorough or more specific definition/description of what or who celebrates (appreciates) the Confederate battle flag then... have at it.
I've been taught, used, shared and enjoyed "Southern" for well over 50 years now and there, up to this point, has been little confusion generated from doing so. Therefore, I think I'll just stick with it.
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