Read the book, if you really believe she was a US sponsored ship... I've got some vertical property along the Mississippi to sell you. As soon as the slaveocracy came to believe their precious institution was no longer safe under the US flag they made their own.
Sorry to hear that. But I will lay you odds at early on they used the Union flag. Really, are you certain the night riders carried a US flag? Care to wager? I asked Mammie, her reply was that the first US flag she saw in relation to klan activities was when the Legion buried her father, and presented a US flag in thanks for his service... the klan showed up to protest a black man getting a funeral w/ military honors. His stone was destroyed a week or two later. That was in the 30's, not the 70-80's.
Read the above. I have, and I'm trying desperately not to laugh.
Oh, I have seen it to. But suppose you take a look at the flag that was used when she was growing up. You don't have to read that crap but scroll down and take a look. Joy, more klan crap. I've taken a shower once today I don't feel the pressing need to have to take another. Do you really think those men under Forrest were carrying a US flag? I doubt it.
I think the KKK is a nasty blight on America! They use the Confederate Flag as a symbol of hate but that didn't happen until 20, 30 years ago. Before that, it was the good old US of A flag they used.
No it wasn't. In the 50's it was the CBF as often or more than the US and in the 60's many also added the swatsika. So your math is off by at leat 30 years. I never heard of a CBF flying over any Civil Right gatherings... have you? It's fairly clear to me which flag is forever equated w/ the klan. As a hint, it isn't the stars and stripes. There is no doubt in my mind which flag the black population of the South equate with the Klan.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
No it wasn't. In the 50's it was the CBF as often or more than the US and in the 60's many also added the swatsika. So your math is off by at leat 30 years. I never heard of a CBF flying over any Civil Right gatherings... have you? It's fairly clear to me which flag is forever equated w/ the klan. As a hint, it isn't the stars and stripes. There is no doubt in my mind which flag the black population of the South equate with the Klan.
OK. So I am wrong. You didn't answer my question I first posed to you. What flag was the Wanderer flying?
I am truly sorry about what your granma went through. Them was hard days. But don't try to convince me the US flag is pure as far as slavery is concerned.
"The Wanderer was built in a Long Island shipyard in 1857 as a pleasure craft yacht for Colonel John Johnson. She was built to be one of the most impressive pleasure crafts in the world. This was clearly demonstrated as her simple and streamlined design allowed the ship to achieve speeds of up to 20 knots, making Wanderer one of the fastest ships of the day. While on a trip to New Orleans, Johnson stopped in Charleston and subsequently sold the Wanderer to William C. Corrie. The Wanderer returned to New York and was being prepared for a long voyage when she was accused of being a slave ship. The ship was inspected and cleared; however, public rumors of being involved in the slave trade were thereafter permanently associated with her name."
The Wanderer flew US, Brit, Portugese & I believe Dutch flags in her short career.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
The Wanderer flew US, Brit, Portugese & I believe Dutch flags in her short career.
Thanks. Sorry you got all upset over this. I was just showing how it was with the American Flag as well as the Flag of the Confederacy. Neither one is lily white.
OK. So I am wrong. You didn't answer my question I first posed to you. What flag was the Wanderer flying?
I am truly sorry about what your granma went through. Them was hard days. But don't try to convince me the US flag is pure as far as slavery is concerned.
"The Wanderer was built in a Long Island shipyard in 1857 as a pleasure craft yacht for Colonel John Johnson. She was built to be one of the most impressive pleasure crafts in the world. This was clearly demonstrated as her simple and streamlined design allowed the ship to achieve speeds of up to 20 knots, making Wanderer one of the fastest ships of the day. While on a trip to New Orleans, Johnson stopped in Charleston and subsequently sold the Wanderer to William C. Corrie. The Wanderer returned to New York and was being prepared for a long voyage when she was accused of being a slave ship. The ship was inspected and cleared; however, public rumors of being involved in the slave trade were thereafter permanently associated with her name."
From the book, The American Slave Trade, by John R. Spears, Chapter XIX, Latter-Day Slave Smugglers, pg. 199-201:
"According to the records of the New York Yacht Club, the Wanderer was built by James G. Baylis, at Port Jefferson, L.I., for Mr. J. D. Johnson, a wealthy member of the club. She was launched in June, 1857. Her dimensions were: Length over all 104 feet; keel, 95; beam, 26.5; depth of hold, 10.5; draught, 10.5. Her mainmast was 84 feet long and its topmast 35. The main boom was 65 feet long, and its gaff and the main gaff 35. The bowsprit was 23 feet outboard.
Captain Thomas Hawkins superintended her while on the blocks, and "to hear him tell it," said on of his friends to me, "you'd think she could fly instead of sailing." He added: "She was, however, a very fast schooner." A beautiful painting of the Wanderer hangs in the Yacht Club's reception room at this writing (1900).
Mr. Johnson sold the schooner to Captain W. C. Corrie, who was elected a member of the New York Yacht Club on May 29, 1858, and he sailed for the South with her at once. Under the rules of the club Corrie was Captain of the yacht. Her sailing master was a brother of the late Admiral Semmes, of the Confederate navy. Captain Corrie took her to Charleston, and there cleared out for Trinidad, as if on a pleasure voyage, although, as a matter of fact, she had a slaver outfit in her hold. Captain Egbert Farnham, a man of an adventurous career--he had been a famous overland rider in his time, and, it is said, one of Walker's Nicaragua filibusters--went along as supercargo.
From Trinidad the Wanderer went to St. Helena, and thence to the Congo River. She was still flying the American flag and that of the New York Yacht Club, of course, and when the British war-ship Medusa was found cruising for slavers on the Congo coast, Captain Corrie ran alongside and remained with her several days (according to the newspapers), during which he entertained the British officers with the best he had, and was in turn entertained in royal fashion on the war-ship. Places of interest ashore were visited in company. There was a race with a British yacht off the coast, in which, of course, the Wanderer won handsomely.
Farnham told the reporters, after his return, that on one occasion, after the wine had mellowed the British officers sufficiently, they were invited to inspect the Wanderer to see whether she was not a slaver, whereat the whold party laughed joyously. The idea that such a magnificent floating palace as the Wanderer was to be used as a slavery did seem extremely ridiculous to them. Then the British sailed away and the Wanderer slipped away up the Congo to the barracoons.
The owners of the Wanderer, besides Corrie, were Charles A. L. Lamar, of Savannah; N. C. Trowbridge, of New Orleans; Captain A. C. McGhee, of Columbus, GA; Richard Dickerson, of Richmond, VA, and Benjamin Davis, of Charleston, SC. Captain McGhee, in an interview with a correspondent of the New York Sun, printed four or five year ago, said that the cargo purchased consisted chiefly of young negroes from thirteen to eighteen years of age, and that seven hundred and fifty were taken on board.
That she go clear of the slave-coast with a full load is beyond doubt. The exact date of her arrival on the Georgia coast is not known, but it was not far from December 2, 1858. The first mention of the matter in print is found in the Savannah Republican of December 11th of that year, wherein it is asserted that her cargo was landed "in the neighborhood of St. Andrews Sound, near Brunswick," and that "part of her cargo was subsequently sent up Saltilla River on board a steamer."
The Savannah Republican said a few days later that it had heard "that slaves were landed on Jekyl Island, for which privilege, it is said, the negro traders paid $15,000, and that a steamboat from this city went down and brought one hundred and fifty of them past Savannah and up the river to a plantation from whence they were scattered over the country."
Captain McGhee tells how this was done:
"The most difficult part of the voyage was to get into port. The only way to enter the mouth of the Savannah River was under the black muzzles of the guns of the fort, and it would have been madness to attempt to enter with that contraband cargo into the mouth of the Great Ogeechee by night and ascended the river to the big swamp, and there lay concealed while he communicated with Lamar in Savannah.
Lamar thereupon announced that he was going to give a grand ball in honor of the officers and garrison of the fort, and insisted that the soldiers, as well as their superiors, should partake of the good cheer. When the gayety was at its height the Wanderer stole into the river and passed the guns of the fort unchallenged in the darkness and made her way to Lamar's plantations, some distance up the river. The human cargo was soon disembarked and placed under the charge of the old rice-field negroes, who were nearly as savage as the new importations."
The point is, Vareb, ANYONE could procur an American flag and fly it from the mainmast. Most slavers, no matter what country of origin, flew an American flag as British ships were not allowed to search American flagged ships for slaves under treaty agreement. Here we see the clear evidence that Southerners financed and led the operation in order to bring back a cargo of slaves.
So who in your opinion, is the more evil, the procurer of slaves who finance the ship from the North to capture slaves or the Northern shipbuilders who built the Wanderer?
And you are correct in your assesment that no matter who carried the slaves to their buyers or who bought and owned them, neither was lilly white.
In my view, the pusher who supplies the drugs is just as guilty as the user who steals, robs, or murders, to get the money to buy the drugs. Both have broken the law, both should be held accountable.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I'm at a loss to figure out where the point is in this discussion. The Wanderer was built in the north only because there were no southern boatbuilders. The money was from southerners. When she sailed, she sailed under the Stars and Stripes. Was there an alternative in 1858? No.
Fitted as a slaver, she got through port authorities anyway. (Bureacrats. Can't live with them and can't shoot them.) She sailed to West Africa and flummoxed the blockading squadrons there. She loaded almost 500 captives and slipped through the blackade to deliver a few over 400 souls to Jekyll Island.
So here we are arguing about the flag that she flew. Does, "get a life" appeal to you?
I read the book. I'll assume that you did, as well. Where did we differ on what it said?
Second thought. You havent't read it. Do that and we can resume a reasoable discourse.
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
How many ships brought African slaves to the Southern United States from 1808 to 1860?-
Only one...the Wanderer. If there were others there is no documentation.
Some slaves may have been smuggled in from Cuba or the West Indies but the majority (if not all) were born in those places...not Africa.
During the 1850s how many slave ships ventured out of New York and New England ports to purchase (or capture) Africans and take them to Cuba? (Prior to the 1850s it was Cuba, Brazil and other places where slavery was legal.)
40 or 50 a year.
40/50 x 500 slaves = 20,000/25,000 slaves per year.
Perhaps New York and the states of New England should issue an apology for this?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Some slaves may have been smuggled in from Cuba or the West Indies but the majority (if not all) were born in those places...not Africa.
(snip)
40/50 x 500 slaves = 20,000/25,000 slaves per year.
There seems to be a conflict between the two statements.
Have you read "The Wanderer" yet? (It is the story of the voyage of a Southern-owned slave ship flying the US Flag.)
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Ref. post # 27; Even assuming Battalion's numbers are correct, for once, what do the numbers mean. If the Wanderer is the example, it would appear some southern gentlemen made a fortune in the illegal, international slave trade.
The Wanderer made only one trip and it was made more as provocative statement than a profitable venture.
Battalion is fixated on the number of Yankee vessels that continued the trade to the Caribbean and South America after the 1808 ban on directly importing slaves to the states. The trade was about as risky as any other ship sailing to and fro across the Atlantic, and it was enormously profitable (around 1000 percent on the cargo).
It didn't become risky until the British started getting serious about cutting it off -- somewhere around 1840 -- but there aren't enough ships in the British Navy to sail the 7 seas and interdict slavers, so although slowed, the trade continued. (The US Navy was a joke.)
Although the ships sailed from northern ports and were purportedly owned solely by greedy Yankees, any degree of southern ownership or partnership has not, to my knowledge, been examined.
The whole thing is a back-door version of, "So's your old man!"
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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