I concede this is a very difficult question to as*sess (sorry- had to do that to evade the artificial unintelligence). As samgrant points out, folks without an historical perspective would see only the now and the popular discontent associated with recent presidents, and it is hard not to be immune from current times even for us with an understanding of history. In a poll of the general public, Without question, W & Bubba would top the list with a smattering of Jimmah, Nixon, & Reagan. Because of our Southern friends of long memory, Lincoln might vie for the top 5, but barely I would wager.
It is easy to see the goings on, rantings, railings, and imbecilic gibberish we see today and wonder how it could have been worse in earlier times. Every president had his vocal, frenzied even, even maniacal opposition save I would say Washington. John Adams was deeply and vociferously reviled as was Jefferson after him. Things couldn't have been much better for Madison and the New England Federalists witlessly ranting about seceding, for Quincy Adams, for Jackson beset with the nullifiers, besides the other problems they had to contend with. And then we come to Lincoln, who not only had an accomplished secession and with it war to deal with, but the crazed, lunatic, unto treasonous poison of the Copperheads and then also the war-weary.
Did Lincoln have it worse than George W does? Kinda hard to imagine, even with the multitude of woes and bitterness Lincoln faced, that what W is going through is much better- given the instantly broadcast litany of whining and ranting and lunacy unto treasonous poison by true enemies and just dummies to largely educated, but dim and ignorant masses of easily distracted instant gratifiers.
I suppose it comes down to that the Good Lord in His infiinite wisdom has deemed it largely comical or else a way to keep the good and wise on their toes to inflict a liberal (pun intended) dosage of maniacal ranting and wailing, thrashing and gibbering, lunatics upon the land. What else could it be?
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
You've obviously noted that that the "great" presidents had great problems. Who knows? Pierce and Van Buren might be on Mt. Rushmore if they had faced the same travail of those so honored. History some centuries hence will note dubya more than Jimmie or Bubba. Note that I said "note." He will figure bigger in the books than the others because of 9/11. How it treats his presidency is quite another matter.
We remember Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, FDR, HST, JFK, et al., for what happened during their presidency first, and how they responded second. Most don't remember Buchanan. As CW loonies, we do but don't make a smudge on the record. Most wouldn't be able to place Jeff Davis in the history of the US -- we do, but etc., etc.
An awesome, daunting responsibility requiring nads of brass and the Lord only knows what else. I'll just sit on the sidelines and set my crosshairs on the snipers.
Good post, by the way.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
As I have previously suggested, our current opinions must color the answers to this question, as few of us can relate to those times before we lived - witness the high number of votes for president from the last 50 years vs. all the others.
Only Lincoln among those other got so many votes.
I might suggest that this proportionate result may be just the tendency of our southern brothers venting their wrath in retrospect on their favorite villain, but the "while in office" clause might well justify the results (if in fact the responders to the polls were alive when Lincoln was in office.
No question that A.L. was reviled in the South, fact is he was reviled by various factions in the North at the same time (he was doing too much, he wasn't doing enough; on a variety of issues).
I note that whoever posted this poll did not include one Jefferson Davis as a choice. That's fine with me as I would also not include the president of Bolivia or Togo (tho they might have more legitimacy).
But I think it is also interesting that J. Davis, who held not quite a mirror image of "revilement" that Lincoln endured, was subject to a similar criticism. From the North in general, and also from the South, almost immediately from the most radical of secessionists and later from the governors who were dissatisfied with a government founded on ' states rights' which ended up superseding those rights, and finally to the ordinary people of the South who were eventually being starved to death for the Confederacy.
So not to bring J. D. to a level with a President of the United States, it is also very interesting to consider the fact that both of these, after their deaths, were no longer reviled, but revered. While Lincoln must take the cake as having been 'martyred' and needed nothing but his legacy for his honor, Davis's legacy was vigorously promoted by those 'lost causers' such as Early, etc.
Also see: The Death and Resurrection of Jefferson Davis by Donald E. Collins, and The Assassination of Lincoln: History and Myth (Myths After Lincoln) by Lloyd Lewis
__________________ -
"It was a very peculiar time." - Franklin D. Cossitt
Ancestors in USA Army: 6th IA Inf, 11th IL Cav, 1st AL Cav; 122nd NY Inf; 6th MI Cav; 35th MA Inf; 100th IL Inf; 1st CO Inf/Cav; 22nd IN Inf
I have no doubt that it had to be Lincoln because of the division in the country. Basically everyone in the south hated him along with many northerners. This by no means made him a bad president, just unpopular with many poeple.
Three men should top the list of most reviled presidents during their time in office: Lincoln, Andrew Johnson and Nixon. But, determining which one should reign supreme in this category is a bit hard to do since each of their situations was quite different. And, the way in which the question was worded is also a bit tricky.
Lincoln: It would appear that Lincoln should stand at the top of this list without question. What other president found such opposition that nearly half the country literally tried to secede? At the same time, we must recognize that it was not simply Lincoln himself, or even Lincoln as president, that sparked secession. The Deep South seceded before he was in office, not while he was in office, as the question specifies. As such, it was not Lincoln the president so much as it was Lincoln the Republican that generated such opposition.
While there is no doubt that Lincoln found about as much resistance and hatred from within the country as any president, he did win reelection and had become the recognized leader of the Union and its cause.
Andrew Johnson: He could also appear to be an obvious choice, for Johnson's near impeachment signalled the complete abandonment by his party. During his last year or so in office, his authority was nonexistent because of the opposition of Radical and moderate Republicans -- and some men even destroyed their own political careers by defending him (for instance, Edmund Ross of Kansas).
Nixon: Overall, I voted for Nixon as most reviled during his presidency. This was not an easy decision. Unlike Lincoln, Nixon came to power with a great deal of support and popularity. And, unlike Andrew Johnson, Nixon was able to work fairly effectively for much of his time in office. However, how he ended his term is the defining feature. His resignation avoided potential prosecution, impeachment, and expulsion---which not even Andrew Johnson had undergone. No other president had to literally leave office because of his actions and the subsequent outcry for blood.
I don't think he deserves it but George W. Bush gets reviled all the time.
Sorry; but he does deserve it. The secrecy, the lies, the wars, the death. Before you start ranting about what a liberal I must be, I am pretty conservative. Balanced budget, non-aggression, small federal government, with states rights, environmental protections and personal freedoms are traditional conservative issues. All of which are missing these days. Do any of you know the ramifications of the Military Commissions Act? I also believe a government should be open and truthful. I was in American intelligence for 7 years and saw things that would turn your hair white. So, I have earned the right to my opinions.
Calicoboy
__________________ My dear mother:- I have come safely through two more terrible engagements with the enemy, that at South Mountain and the great battle of yesterday (Antietam). Our splendid regiment is almost destroyed. We have had nearly 400 men killed and wounded in the battles. Seven of our officers were shot and three killed in yesterday's battle and nearly 150 men killed and wounded. All from less than 300 engaged. The men have stood like iron....Maj. Rufus Dawes, 6th Wisconsin Volunteers
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