Who is Most Responsible for the Civil War??

[thea_447]

I have to agree with Tommy.

Ole,

Letting the South have the Liberty, the Right of Self Determination without killing them. Avoiding war. Meeting with peace committees. Lots of things. Hey, I just voted my conscience.
YMOS
tommy

Lincoln had the opportunity to avoid war by meeting with Davis. He chose to ignore it. With every calculated move, like a chess player, he used the South as pawns.

Yeah, there were lots of things that could have been done, practically all of them by Abraham Lincoln...

By the way, we're having lovely weather down here in Occupied Alabama.

[johan_steele]

Ah so the South was duped? Are you suggesting that the CS politicians were too stupid to figure out that Lincoln was manipulating them? Or are you saying that Lincoln was a master manipulator or the anti-christ?

Occupied Alabama? North Alabama... the heavily pro union territory.

[thea_447]

As to Occupied Alabama (which if anyone of the opposing faction noted, I added a smiley face to my post) here are a few items I found on the "net". (Might I take this opportunity to remind others gently that those of us who have been on these boards for a long period should feel the urgent need to be civil, not sarcastic or flaming, in replies so that we can all enjoy the boards. We have already seen what can happen when civility is tossed out the window: Sarcasm and baiting serve no purpose and will drive a deep division among us.)

"Richard Nelson Current, author of "Lincoln's Loyalists," estimates that as many as 100,000 white, Southern males wore the Blue instead of the Gray as regular soldiers or local militia. Did you know every state in the Confederacy except for South Carolina raised at least one unit for the Federal Army, for a total of 55 regiments?"

"Consider Alabama, the only state for which I have the figures handy. A Deep South state, the location of the first capitol of the Confederacy, yet 23 counties voted the "Cooperationist" ticket. In Winston County, not a single vote was cast for secession. In the 23 loyalist counties, the vote was 21,665 to 12,042. However, the plantation states wielded the power, and in the slave-holding plantation counties, 24,865 voted to secede and 6,965 voted to remain. The totals for the state were 28,630 to remain in the Union and 36,907 for secession. Barbour, Bibb, Butler, Henry, Lowndes, Marengo, Pike and Russell Counties tallied no Cooperationist votes. Thus, 43.7% of the voters of the ostensibly solid Confederate state voted to remain within the Union.

The vote for secession followed closely the distribution of slaves or the number of bales of cotton produced in Alabama. Winston County held only 122 slaves, or 3.41% of the population, and in most of the loyal counties, the proportion of slaves was less than 20%. However, substantial Unionist sentiment was found even in the plantation counties. In Green County, with 76.5% of the population being African slaves, nearly 40% of voters wished to remain within the Union. It must be pointed out that these figures overestimate Unionist support because many Southerners voted Cooperationist and then enlisted in Confederate forces. Nonetheless, I think we can conclude that at the beginning, the South was far from united in its rebellion, and substantial minorities still held the Old Flag in high regard, while in some areas the loyalists comprised a majority. This represented a worrisome threat that drained substantial Confederate resources throughout the entire war."

The Union troops, the First Alabama which has been praised highly by members of these boards had a dark side too. Besides being "zealous in its chastisement of Rebels", they took seriously their role as foragers.

It's been charged that the First, knowing where a Southerner was likely to stash his food, never went hungry. This is not entirely true because they often went hungry and their horses starved for lack of forage. They relished their job as incendiaries, too and "laid Barnwell in ashes" despite Kilpatrick's efforts to stop them.

I will not bother to answer baiting questions. I will repeat however that Lincoln had the opportunity to meet with Davis, and discuss their differences in order to avoid war. Everything leading up to this war points to lack of communication between North and South. And therein lies the great tragedy.

[ole]

As president the "noble experiment," Lincoln could not personally negotiate with the Confederacy. To do so would be a recognition of the CSA as a belligerent nation and likely cause other nations to add their recognition.

He might have sent unofficial envoys, but the heat generated by the firing on Ft. Sumter would have made that political suicide. With that cannonade, the door slammed shut. Given the time between the inauguration and the shooting, he didn't have a great deal of time to arrange even that.

[johan_steele]

If you feel you are being mistreated, flamed or baited please feel free to report the post. The Exclamation point beside each post number will accomplish that.

Sarcasm, vitrolic prose etc have been passed between sides frequently... I will always take to task what I believe are insults to the fighting men in Blue or Gray and shall oppose "creative history" and hatred where I can.

A pleasently suprising post. Quite a few would disagree about Alabama being an occupied state as your post did so well in pointing out. Alabama today is no more occupied territory than Germany or Japan. I would wager a large chunk of change that at the mere suggestion of closing down Maxwell AFB or others military installations and removing the "occupying" military force there would be a rather loud hue and cry... after all it's difficult to bilk GI's when they are no longer in town. Occupied indeed.

Have a nice memorial day, I'll say a prayer for your son; please thank him for his service from an unapologetic northerner and veteran. God Bless.

[thea_447]

In response to post #25:

"Are you suggesting that the CS politicians were too stupid to figure out that Lincoln was manipulating them?" No, I don't think they were stupid. They couldn't have lasted against such odds had they been stupid. I do think that they were manipulated by Lincoln, and I have never been so base as to even suggest Mr. Lincoln was the anti-christ. Lincoln was many things to many people and I think history which looks kindly on him at the moment may re-think Mr. Lincoln someday.


"I would wager a large chunk of change that at the mere suggestion of closing down Maxwell AFB or others military installations and removing the "occupying" military force there would be a rather loud hue and cry... after all it's difficult to bilk GI's when they are no longer in town. Occupied indeed."

It is quite true that Montgomery benefits from having the War College at Maxwell here, as well as Gunter AFB. It is a shame that a rich state like Massachusetts, under Ted Kennedy's wing, would take away at least 3200 local jobs here simply to satisfy an elder statesman. (That's just the jobs directly affiliated with Gunter. That absolutely wouldn't touch the number of other jobs.)

I believe this would be fair to say about any Southern community that doesn't have a high standard of living (so I'm not talking about Atlanta, Charleston, New Orleans, etc.) that a federal facility moves into.)

Gunter AFB, not Maxwell, has its head on the chopping block if Kennedy gets his way this time. The "Montgomery" newspaper explained it very well Sunday. At a meeting to be held this week, Montgomery officials will have approximately 15 minutes to get in their "sound bites" about why Gunter is crucial for local peoples jobs and for the community in general.

People in the private sector don't get a "housing allowance", nor do they get insurance, they have to pay for it, and I'm talking big bucks! Firings and lay-offs aren't a problem for the military, are they? The private sector also doesn't get a retirement fund that can never be taken away. For people like my husband and myself who are in the private sector, actually it would help us if the military moved out: food, housing, everything would go down!

As for "betting" on any of this: you, sir, would be the only one who could afford to bet that "large chunk of change". "Bilking" everyone? I don't think that would be the term for it since Alabamians across the board are paying those same prices, only without the benefit of a "housing allowance", "medical care", "insurance", "commissary", to name a few. And I haven't stood in line behind anyone at the pharmacy except people in the private sector and watched silently and sadly while someone whispers to the clerk, "Can I just get two of my pills today?" This is a daily occurrence that I witness and it breaks my heart.

I would certainly like to see some sort of study done on how well a community fares after a federal facility leaves. Oh yes, Selma and Craig AFB. Selma is a lovely town, albeit a ghost town in many parts, the highlight being the Selma to Montgomery Civil Rights March and the Battle of Selma, both events that can only be celebrated once a year.

If any "bilking" is being done it's to the detriment of the local people who cannot afford the higher prices. In my town, which is quite near Montgomery, those beautiful expensive homes (in the $325,000 to $850,000 range) that have been springing up for many years now in new subdivisions are certainly a testament to Maxwell AFB families. How can you tell? Because each year in June and July the signs all go up in the yards as these families are transferred to their next rotation: Germany, Chesapeake, Arizona, California,etc. (I use those places at this particular time because that's where some of my piano students are packing for right now..)

The standard of living that "the military" bring to a community like Montgomery ups the price of housing here to the point that local people could not possibly live in these homes. (Think Miami and the locals BEFORE it became a rich man's paradise and other communities in the South where federal retirees flock like wild geese because of our lower taxes.)

I do not want to leave the reader with the idea that I don't like the military occupation in Alabama. It provides jobs for people who don't have work. And I love the way the military always get involved in community life; they are definitely an asset to any community. But I feel that one should look at the whole picture. And everyone knows two people can look at the same picture and see something entirely different.

I have taught for a number of years and invariably these military families tell me how "reasonable" the prices are here. I just smile. So I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, isn't it, and at which angle you view the picture.

Signing off for now, I remain
Your Most Obedient but Unapologetic Servant in Occupied Alabama
Thea

[ole]

Thanks, Thea, for opening another window on base closings.

[thea_447]

I don't want to permanently de-rail this thread by a change of topic, but since the door has been opened concerning two subjects very close to my heart, it was by sheer coincidence that two articles appeared in the Montgomery Advertiser that are pertinent.

Thanks, Ole, for being interested in my comments on base closings in the South. This article, which came out today, June 1, 2005, concerns what I mentioned about Alabama's representatives having about 15 minutes to get in their "sound bites". Hopefully when the final decision is announced Gunter AFB will still be open and all those jobs will have been saved, rather than appease "Teddy" Kennedy.

Here is the url and I've also taken the liberty to post what I considered the relevant portions of this editorial.
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5rogers01w.htm

The Base Realignment and Closure report, released May 13, advised that Headquarters Operations and Sustainment Systems Group (OSSG) be shifted from Gunter Annex of Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base to Hanscom Air Force Base near Boston.



OSSG provides computer support for Air Force operations worldwide, and its move from Montgomery eventually could affect as many as 3,200 workers.

The move, along with a proposed realignment of smaller functions from Wright-Patterson Air Force Base near Dayton, Ohio, would give Hanscom a yet-to-be created organization.

The plan is to find shortcomings of the recommendation to present to the independent nine-member BRAC commission. The panel has set a regional public hearing for June 30 in Atlanta.

The commission, appointed by the White House and Congress, must have a report submitted by Sept. 8 to President Bush, who must work with Congress on an all-or-nothing list later this fall.

Rogers said he hasn't been asked locally for help, and added that he believes it would be inappropriate to tell an Alabama military community how to respond. He said he's ready to work in a supporting role.

However, Rogers said he believes wheeling-and-dealing is a factor in BRAC.

"If anybody thinks that politics is not involved inside the DoD, before it gets to the politicians, then they're naive," he said.

BRAC, which dates back to 1988, was created as a way to take special interests and regions out of the business of shutting down and reconfiguring bases to cut defense spending.

Rogers wasn't in Montgomery on Tuesday for BRAC matters, but to inspect the 187th Fighter Wing, the Alabama Air National Guard unit located at Dannelly Field. The unit has approximately 1,000 personnel.

Plans call for spending $8.4 million in federal funds to construct a new 46,380-square foot operations and training facility. Completion is scheduled for the summer of 2006, said Maj. Paul Griggs, the 187th's spokesman.

Currently, the unit has 17 fighter aircraft, and if BRAC is approved, it would gain three more from a base in Montana.

Col. Sid Clarke, wing commander of the 187th, is concerned because he said some of his unit's planes would have to be replaced by 2012.

The colonel's strategy is to urge expansion and a conversion of the 187th into a joint-strike fighter wing, in which his personnel are partnered with the Air Force and use the latest aircraft.

Clarke cited location and weather as pluses, and he said that it didn't take much to convince Rogers while showing him the 187th. "He said, 'I agree with you.' I mean, of all the places, why not have it here? It makes a lot more sense than doing it where you're on a frozen tundra up north and can't fly half the year," the colonel said.

************************************************** ************************************************** ***************

Another article pointed out a very different attitude towards being stationed in the South than has been reported on CWT repeatedly by a member here. I am sure everyone has a different outlook when they move into a community but this article points out what I have always known & also been told by military who have lived in Alabama, at least. (I believe I am qualified to state what has been told to me over the more than 30 years that I've taught here: Southerners are courteous, cordial and really make an effort to make the military families stationed here feel at home. I have never heard any derogatory remarks throughout these years.)

The url for this article is: http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5warcol0601w.htm

Please take the time to read this short piece. It explains better than I ever could about how the military feel about living in Alabama, and the people they meet while in Alabama.

I think the South has taken some bad rap many times on CWT. By reading this article everyone can at least look at what other military people have said about their assignment here and none of it is negative.

I am very proud to be a resident of Alabama and I hope this gives people on this board a more favorable view of my state. After all, I didn't make this stuff up.

[johan_steele]

Well now... we're on base closings? Good links by the way... little I would disagree w/. Especially any comments about a certain drunken Senator that literally got away w/ murder. BRAC is all political, always has been, always will be; and we should be closing down bases in Germany...

A base whether USAF, Marine, Navy or Army provides thousands of jobs from the local community. Military personnel move into the community w/ their families buy groceries, pay rent, taxes etc... Retires move closer to the facilities provided by a base as well. More people = more money for the community. When the base closes those people by and large leave or find themselves out of a job.

As to my experiances while stationed in the South... I loved Charleston and Savannah; both beautiful and mostly friendly cities. I met some ****ed fine people, am close friends still w/ some; have drifted apart from others. I recall quite vividly watching prices changed when an obvious GI walked through the door. Rent was also often higher for a GI than a civilian... never could figure that one out as a person making minimum wage was bringing in about the same as the average GI and working considerably less hours.

Only officers can afford a $325k house... I soldiered by w/ a trailer home for $13k & $125 a mos lot rent. The Commisary & BX/PX (unless things have changed since 99) all products are name brand, no generic and very long lines. In other words it was cheaper for me to shop at my local Food Lion or go to Wal Mart. Base Hospital... TriCare I shudder at the memory. My little sister w/ an infant, E-4... eligible for WIC & Foodstamps. Thank God she lived on base and I was able to help out as we were stationed on the same base. Others weren't so lucky. I know of many retires who chose to move to the South close to bases as the cost of living was quite a bit lower than in the NE or by the bases in the Midwest and the weather was considered better (I like snow so I figure they're a bit cracked)...

If you would rather federal retires go elsewhere than the South I for one would love to see their sales taxes and income taxes at work in Iowa or Wisconsin.

When I left the USAF for the Private sector I took a low end technicians job. $12 an hour... That was a slight raise over my USAF paycheck w/ all the housing & food allowances. The biggest difference being Overtime.

Different experiances breed different opinions.

Back on track w/ the thread. Who was most responsible for the Civil War? Politicians, primarily of the professional type... and primarily from the slave holding states. Just my humble opinion. Who in particular? That is a tricky question for me as they all seem as slick as those of today... Northern, Southern, Deomcrat, Republican. I can't think of very many I would be willing to invite into my home for dinner.

[Donut]

I believe that it is not a person but an event. the election of Lincoln is most resposible, but this is a difficult question to answer. His presidency is what started it all, the minute he was elected South carolina seceded from the Union, and with this the rest of the South fell out of the Union in a Domino effect. Had he not been elected the South may have not been alarmed and rapid secession may have not taken place. However, my knowlege is limited as to the other candidates, so my response may seem bias.